Fish continue to die over 6 month period

[Dweezilz]

Hello everyone. Sorry for how long this is but I really need urgent help and want to share each detail. So I need to see if I have an issue going on with disease or if things could just be normal and I'm really unlucky. Over the course of 6 months, I've had 7 fish die in my tank. All fish have been quarantined professionally per processes stated on this forum. We don't need to discuss the source. Some lived 4-6 months and some a few weeks or days. I'm going to be very very specific about this timeline so please excuse how long it is. Also note, I spent 2 years after buying my tank setup researching multiple forums, hundreds of BRS videos and asking every question I needed help with before a drop of water hit the tank in July 2022. I do my homework and continuously learn.

Please give me any ideas about what to do from here. I'm thinking about giving up to be honest at this point or just let it ride out and see how the rest do. I don't want to add any more fish for now but do have some credits from the ones that died soon after arrival which I can use. I could get a fish trap and move everyone to quarantine and dose copper etc. and go fallow for a few months but I don't even see most of the things that seem to point to doing this besides loss of appetite and slight deep breathing (which could be circumstantial anyway). Would clowns be good for all this time? Would it kill new inhabitants in 1 or 2 days with no visible signs? Why is the Coral Beauty ok for the last 4 weeks? And one Engineer Goby seems fine besides hiding which is normal. Definitely isn't a fun part of all this and I'm still waiting for the actual fun to start! Been mostly a nightmare.

Red Sea Reefer 250 (65g total)
Params:
PO4 - .07
NO3 - 7.7
NH3 - 0
PH - 8.2
DHK - 9.5 (slightly elevated due to dosing silicates for SCA dinos)
Salinity 1.024
Temp - 78
Light - Hydra52 HD
Return - vecra S2 set at 65% (was running a Sicce SCD 3 which was under powered for the tank)
Powerheads - was 2X Current USA eFlux now a Jebao MLW20 and MLW10
Tunze ATO in 12 gallon dog food storage bin
Premium Aquatics Magus Curve 5
Marine pure gems in a bag and a brick
Sicce Shark Pro with activated carbon filter bag
Spectrapure Maxcap 90 RODI with water stored in Brute trash cans

Feeding
Omega One / Spectrum / PE pellets with garlic 2X pinch (15-30 pellets) per day
Omega One Veggie Pellets 2X pinch per day
PE Frozen Mysiss 4X per week
PE Frozen Spiralina Brine 4X per week
Nori Sheets


Tank Timeline:

(Inhabitants alive unless noted. All fish acclimated per exact expected ways...drip or adding cups of water over time. No delivery water introduced to tank)
July 15th - Added Fritz Turbo 900 and then ammonia 2ppm each day to cycle. After day 17th the tank was cycled with 0 / 0 ammonia/Nitrite.
August 30th 2022 - Two clowns added who immediately host the lower left corner and don't really go elsewhere. They look great, act weird, and eat well. Very clownish.
November 16th 2022 - Watchman Goby, Pistol Shrimp, Starry Blenny added
November 17th 2022 - Starry Blenny who looked weak from the overnight shipping was dead in the morning. Wrote it off to shipping and cold.
January 12th 2023 - McCosker's Wrasse, Royal Gramma, Halloween Hermit, 2x engineer goby (ordered 1 but 2 shipped), Tiger Conch, 10 Nassarius and 10 Nerite snails added. All did well at first.
January 26th 2023 - McCosker's Wrasse shows signs of unknown neurological disease, loses ability to control himself, all typical signs of this unknown issue. He still looks perfect though physically.
February 3rd 2023 - I put the McCosker's to sleep with clove oil in a bucket, even though he was trying to eat and looked 100% perfect but had no control of his body for over a week as per usual with this issue.
March 1st 2023 - Yellow Watchman who hasn't eaten well in about 5 days, spazzed out and went into the rocks unseen for 2 weeks. Presumed dead.
March 14th 2023 - Yellow Watchman reappears for 2 days looking white at first but then normal cream color but eyes looking big and breathing heavy. No physical issues noticable.
March 15th 2023 - Yellow Watchman disappears for a day after spazzing out again and found dead the next morning. Looks 100% normal.
March 16th 2023 - Royal Gramma found weak on the sand, evades being caught and disappears never to be seen again. He looked 100% perfect at the time but breathing hard.
March 17th 2023 - Dino SCA diagnosed via Microscope and Mack's group. March 20th
March 24th 2023 - Dosing water glass .9mm begins along with Phyto, Pods, NeoPhos for 0 NO4.
April 28th 2023 - Xmas Wrasse (immediately disappears under sand after looking close to dead going into the tank), Coral Beauty, Midas Blenny (looks ok but breathing heavy and bobbing his head), 10 Trocus, 10 Nassarius snails added
Midas Blenny looks weak and perches on top rock. Zips up for any food coming his way but goes immediately back to perch. No tank swimming.
April 30th 2023 - Xmas wrasse appears but is weak randomly laying down but swimming. After a few hours, spazzes out and lays dead on the sand. Looks totally perfect in color and condition besides being dead.
May 3rd 2023 - Midas Blenny has brown 'stress stripes', breathing a bit heavy, and stops eating. Sitting lower and more hidden but on same top of the rocks perch.
May 6th 2023 - Midas Blenny is found dead in the sand. Looks fine besides being dead.
May 10th 2023 - Engineer Gobies are huge at around 10" and nearly have full adult coloration. Previous would come out fully to eat, now stay hidden but come out to eat if I move away from the tank.
May 18th 2023 - One of the two Engineer's isn't eating from what I can tell.
May 22nd 2023 - The one Engineer Goby is found dead being eaten by the Halloween Hermit. He looks perfect except for where the hermit was feeding on him.
Currently my two clowns look the same and fine. The Coral Beauty looks fine but is timid if I'm standing right near the glass. Constantly swims and eats algae. Hasn't touched the Nori or pellets but most likely because so much GHA still exists in the tank.

DINO Story: I had zero algae besides diatoms on sand and rocks. Started to worry it was dinos but under scope only saw Diatoms until one day I got a slide filled with SCA. Unfortunately I didn't test PO4 (the one major mistake I made) and it was 0. Nitrate was 10-15 always. Probably had them for a few months and thought they were diatoms. Mack's group helped me and I've been able to get rid of them by dosing water glass, phyto, pods, MB7, and NeoPos as needed to raise PO4 to where it's stabilized now at around .07 (went up to .15 for a bit) and NeoNitro twice when Nitrate dropped to 2. I run a carbon filter bag in a Sicce Shark Pro just in case dino toxins are present. My tank is recovering now with tons of diatoms, GHA, and cyano. Zero dinos seen under scope in over 2 weeks. All seem to be receding now as silicates are being used up by the diatoms. The Cyano is a PIA, doing manual removal, but should start to fade I hope with balanced NO3 and PO4.

All fish that died showed zero physical signs of issues. No skin issues, no fin issues, no spots, no swimming on the top of the tank, no swimming near power
heads (the clowns HATE flow) or discolorations or white dots, etc... Just lost appetite for a week or so, a bit of heavy breathing, and then either vanished or found dead.

 

[Dierks]

I dont want to be a sales rep for AquaBiomics but it sounds like this might be the perfect case to figure out what is in the tank....

From the story that you tell... I have a sinking feeling uronema is going to be found. I am so sorry you have delt with all of this.

This is the rough side of the hobby that none of us want to deal with. If you want to to try and kill this thing off we would have to work in a FOWLR tank as I am unaware of anything that works in a reef tank that can knock out uronema.

 

[Dweezilz]

I dont want to be a sales rep for AquaBiomics but it sounds like this might be the perfect case to figure out what is in the tank....

From the story that you tell... I have a sinking feeling uronema is going to be found. I am so sorry you have delt with all of this.

This is the rough side of the hobby that none of us want to deal with. If you want to to try and kill this thing off we would have to work in a FOWLR tank as I am unaware of anything that works in a reef tank that can knock out uronema.

I have a FOWLR and don't have plans as of now for corals, but possibly in the future if I can ever get this stable for a good amount of time.

 

[Dierks]

I have a FOWLR and don't have plans as of now for corals, but possibly in the future if I can ever get this stable for a good amount of time.

How many fish do you have left in there?

 

[Dweezilz]

Does Eronema happen without the skin lesions? I didn't think of that because I thought it usually would show on the skin. I know the Flasher Wrasse thing is thought to possibly be connected with internal Eronema but unknown more or less. I read that a study done by Jay on R2R showed no internal indicators of that in the case they used. They didn't look further due to funding.

Currently I have the two original clownfish, the Coral Beauty that's been in for a month, and one Engineer Goby who's been in since January (and various crabs/snails/Shrimp)

 

[Dweezilz]

I'm getting pretty handy with the microscope too, so if this is something I can look for I'm on it. I have seen many different round creatures and protozoans in the tank since looking at SCA non-stop until now but looking at the video posted about Uronema marinum I'm not certain if I've seen anything like that. Are there typical places to look in the tank? I can see what I come up with if I can get a good non-fish sample location.

 

[Dierks]

Does Eronema happen without the skin lesions?

Unfortettly it does... It all around sucks.

Currently I have the two original clownfish, the Coral Beauty that's been in for a month, and one Engineer Goby who's been in since January (and various crabs/snails/Shrimp)

You could go with formalin if you can get some of those inverts out o there, or if you don't mind if you lose them. That isn't a great choice, but its an option. You can save as many as you can, qt them, and reintroduce them. Or you can treat them and the ones that mak it should be "treated."

I'm getting pretty handy with the microscope too, so if this is something I can look for I'm on it.

Really the only place you can look on the fish that are alive is most likely gills. And taking a gill sample on small fish is really rough. But if you ever lose another one we can see if we can do bit more digging.

Are there typical places to look in the tank?

Not really... Detritus mainly... But it's so hard when you take a general sample to tell what is what since all the tiny bogs look so simular it takes a trained eye to know what you are looking at in that microsized world. I love it, but man its wild!!

 

[Humblefish]

I'm getting pretty handy with the microscope too, so if this is something I can look for I'm on it. I have seen many different round creatures and protozoans in the tank since looking at SCA non-stop until now but looking at the video posted about Uronema marinum I'm not certain if I've seen anything like that. Are there typical places to look in the tank? I can see what I come up with if I can get a good non-fish sample location.

There are tutorials below on how to take a skin scrape + Ich, Velvet, Brook, Uronema - Microscopic ID:

Ich, Velvet, Brook, Uronema - Microscopic ID

BIG THANKS to Dr. Charlie Gregory for providing these slides/videos. His website can be found here: Exotic Animal Veterinarian | Aquaveterinarian | United States Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum) Brooklynella hostilis Uronema marinum...

humble.fish

 

[Dweezilz]

Unfortettly it does... It all around sucks.


You could go with formalin if you can get some of those inverts out o there, or if you don't mind if you lose them. That isn't a great choice, but its an option. You can save as many as you can, qt them, and reintroduce them. Or you can treat them and the ones that mak it should be "treated."


Really the only place you can look on the fish that are alive is most likely gills. And taking a gill sample on small fish is really rough. But if you ever lose another one we can see if we can do bit more digging.


Not really... Detritus mainly... But it's so hard when you take a general sample to tell what is what since all the tiny bogs look so simular it takes a trained eye to know what you are looking at in that microsized world. I love it, but man its wild!!

Is Formalin the only option in tank? I'd really prefer not to lose my Tiger Pistol, Conch, and Halloween Hermit. I suppose I can setup my QT and put them in there but is this the only way? (aside from trying to catch the fish and put them in the QT). Clowns would be no issue. The Coral Beauty a bit difficult and Engineer Goby impossible without taking all my rocks out. At that point, I think I'd rather be done sadly. Also, I don't even know if I can easily get Formalin.

 

[Dierks]

I'd really prefer not to lose my Tiger Pistol, Conch, and Halloween Hermit.

Pull them... Place them in a QT.

Is Formalin the only option in tank?

You could try Chloroquine Phosphate as well. Metro was the old go-to but we all have come to the conclusion its much better for Brooks and keeping uronema at bay.

 

[Dierks]

Here is the latest I know about the subject:

Intermediate - Us vs Uronema

A TLDR of Uronema treatment options for quick reference: Formalin: Dose every 24 hours in a QT for 7-10 days. Dosage is as follows: * 0.9 ml per 10 gallons if dosing formalin WITH copper in the water * 1 ml per 10 gallons if dosing formalin WITHOUT copper in the water Chloroquine Phosphate...

humble.fish

 

[Dweezilz]

ok...all of this is honestly making me pretty sad and really bummed out. As everyone is, we are so super busy at this point in our life and I feel this is going to get out of hand quick. My wife is already ready to kill me with all my testing stuff from Dinos on the kitchen table for 2 months and my constant worry about the tank is killing me!

I really do not want to have a tank that has Uronema in it forever and just manage it if at all possible. Sounds like fish dying and a constant worry and nightmare. I know it's impossible to say but before I dive into this, is there a possibility it isn't Uronema and if so, how strong a possibility? Any other possibilities? I honestly don't know that I have the time or patience for an in-depth time consuming test, unless we are fairly certain it has to be this. Would the process with Formalin eradicate it from the tank completely?

Second thought is, if I am to continue, am I better off taking everything out, putting fish in a QT and inverts in another and treating them there and then starting my tank all over again and sanitize the tank, bleach the rock, get new sand, etc.? I'm not even sure I'm up for that at this point but maybe that's the best route if I continue. Would the fish even be ok for sure to put back into the new tank without just transfering it back all over again?

 

[Dierks]

is there a possibility it isn't Uronema and if so, how strong a possibility? Any other possibilities?

of course!! There are a million other things!

That eDNA test will tell you what it is. Takes a couple of months to get results...

 

[Dierks]

I honestly don't know that I have the time or patience for an in-depth time consuming test, unless we are fairly certain it has to be this.

Its the same thing as you would do for a ICP Test, its not hard or in depth. But it is costly... and tasks time

 

[Dweezilz]

Its the same thing as you would do for a ICP Test, its not hard or in depth. But it is costly... and tasks time

Yeah that I can do as long as it's not like $300 or something. I was really talking about the time to do the Formalin process not the eDNA thing. Where is the info on the eDNA? Is there any process to eradicate Uronema from the tank or just tank tear-down and disinfecting everything? Is the Formalin in tank going to kill it for the entire tank?

 

[Dierks]

Second thought is, if I am to continue, am I better off taking everything out, putting fish in a QT and inverts in another and treating them there and then starting my tank all over again and sanitize the tank, bleach the rock, get new sand, etc.? I'm not even sure I'm up for that at this point but maybe that's the best route if I continue. Would the fish even be ok for sure to put back into the new tank without just transfering it back all over again?

Nope, if you want to be a guinea pig we can try some stuff with in-tank TTO... If you want a sure thing go with formalin...
If you want to see what it is and go from there simply do the test and see what you are dealing with. Or get some more fish and hope that it's something that isn't a disease, but for how many fish you have lost it seems something is going on here. Could be environmental though and maybe something is slowly killing things, but doesn't line up with no inverts dying off.

I am so sorry that I have to be the one to break all this to you, I really yam. I don't like being this person. We are here to help and if there is anything we can help or point you tords I am happy to! I ma just one guy and one guys opinion... Lets call in others and see if we can get anyone else to chime in!

@Fish Disease Medics @Fish Disease Experts you guys have any thoughts here?

Any person reading this chim in! We love hearing from folks with ideas and the "This has happened to me" stuff. it usually all helps.

 

[Dierks]

Yeah that I can do as long as it's not like $300 or something. I was really talking about the time to do the Formalin process not the eDNA thing. Where is the info on the eDNA? Is there any process to eradicate Uronema from the tank or just tank tear-down and disinfecting everything? Is the Formalin in tank going to kill it for the entire tank?

The in-tank treatment is a simple 1ml/10 gallons every day for 10 days.

 

[Dierks]

Where is the info on the eDNA?

AquaBiomics

Microbiome analysis for aquariums and aquaculture. We know that growing the right microbes is essential for a successful saltwater aquarium. Now you can actually test for these microbes.

humble.fish

 

[Dweezilz]

Nope, if you want to be a guinea pig we can try some stuff with in-tank TTO... If you want a sure thing go with formalin...
If you want to see what it is and go from there simply do the test and see what you are dealing with. Or get some more fish and hope that it's something that isn't a disease, but for how many fish you have lost it seems something is going on here. Could be environmental though and maybe something is slowly killing things, but doesn't line up with no inverts dying off.

I am so sorry that I have to be the one to break all this to you, I really yam. I don't like being this person. We are here to help and if there is anything we can help or point you tords I am happy to! I ma just one guy and one guys opinion... Lets call in others and see if we can get anyone else to chime in!

@Fish Disease Medics @Fish Disease Experts you guys have any thoughts here?

Any person reading this chim in! We love hearing from folks with ideas and the "This has happened to me" stuff. it usually all helps.

I really appreciate all the help, I really do. Sucks to feel helpless but feels great to have community friends to help me. No wonder 95% quit before the first year is up. Frustrating.

If the formalin rids the tank of it completely, it's a possibility I would do it as a test as long as it wasn't crazy difficult. I'm guessing it won't work by taking out the inverts and putting them back in if they can reinfect the tank. I'd hate to lose them, but maybe it's the easiest and safest route if taking them out and back in risks reinfection. If the eDNA on the water works, that's an option too just to make sure it's what we think it is.

I suppose I can try to get new fish in a month or two when the tank recovers from the cyano from the dino phase and see how they do but it also sucks wasting hundreds of dollars just to see.

 

[Dierks]

I'm guessing it won't work by taking out the inverts and putting them back in if they can reinfect the tank.

You will simply remove these guys.. Then as soon as they molt (Wil happen once a month for most inverts) they can go back into the Tank!