How do we know God exists?

DexterB

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That is a big turn off for many regarding the catholic church. I understand too, especially given their past highlighted above. But many believers have stood firm and resolved that the pope is infallible....until we got a progressive one from a 3rd world country 😈:ROFLMAO:
I agree with above. I personally do believe in God. But I have always felt people are born equal. I don’t think the Pope, celebrities🙄 or any human being is infallible

When my wife & I visited St. Peters in Rome it was a big turnoff how the Popes were prominently featured (statues) all over the church. To me, the focus should be primarily on Bible teachings because that's the only way to know & understand God and Jesus. Everything else is just manmade.
Agree - in the Middle Ages there were designated “sin eaters”. You paid for them to forgive your sins. Man will always find a way to profit, even off religion.

We have family that lived in Washington, DC. It really struck me all the imagery deifying Washington.
1200px-Apotheosis_of_George_Washington.jpg
 

Crashjack

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Thats true, but bible teachings are also Man Made as the new testament was written long after Jesus died. Some of it like 300 years after he died.
The Bible was in fact written by man. However, most if not all of the New Testament was written within a few decades of Christ's ascension. "Mark" places himself at the crucifixion and is also mentioned in books that he didn't write. Paul includes in some of his writings direct contact with some of Jesus' disciples. "Luke" is also mentioned by Paul, and believed to have written the books of Luke and Acts, and there are other examples. Now, the Bible was canonized (put together) some centuries later.

What is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Why is it that some people have this while others don’t? Why has he chosen to forsake those who never knew he existed, leaving them to worship other deities or none at all?
The fact that I "know" or choose to experience something has nothing to do with anybody else. I know the peace and joy I have when my relationship with Christ is strong and how that changes during times when my relationship is not as strong. I guess it is kind of similar to someone's reefing methodology in that they know it works because they witness the results. I mean, there is no science behind Paul B's non-quarantining methods, but he will be the first to say that they work for him. Science or no science, I doubt anybody can prove that his methods don't work for him.

Science is a funny thing. To me, it is merely man's attempt to explain God, instead of the other way around. I guess if you believe that man is or has the capacity to become god through science then I understand one's position that people use "God" to explain science. However if you believe that humans are a lot more similar to ants than to God (what I believe) then you realize that "science" expresses natural things in a way that man (and only man) comprehends. For all we know, ants have "ant science", birds have "bird science", fish have "fish science", and it means absolutely nothing to humans. I did an experiment: I opened a science book and pushed it against the glass of my reef tank... my fish swam away. I then started explaining string theory to my dog, but she laid down, gave a big sigh, and fell asleep. I then went outside to a yellow jacket hive in my backyard and told them that they had no capacity for thought or reason and that their every move was determined by their genetic make-up and pheromones... the little f**kers flew out of the ground and stung me. Maybe I just didn't present it right or maybe human science was totally meaningless to them and maybe our "science" isn't the panacea some claim. It doesn't mean that science isn't useful, fun, or that it shouldn't be taught in schools (schools for humans). However, science is nothing more than one of man's expressions, and I don't believe it deserves any higher prominence than any other discipline (art, music, literature, athletics, etc.).
 

Corey

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Alot about religion.
Maybe.... Maybe not..... The real question is why do you invest time in what you don't believe? It takes alot for me to find enough time to stop and write this. Rather on try to study Darwinism. I learned it in school, put a bunch of things in a bag. Shake Shake Shake out comes a red snapper! Ha ha just kidding 😎
 

mikeintoronto

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Science is a funny thing. To me, it is merely man's attempt to explain God, instead of the other way around. I guess if you believe that man is or has the capacity to become god through science then I understand one's position that people use "God" to explain science. However if you believe that humans are a lot more similar to ants than to God (what I believe) then you realize that "science" expresses natural things in a way that man (and only man) comprehends. For all we know, ants have "ant science", birds have "bird science", fish have "fish science", and it means absolutely nothing to humans. I did an experiment: I opened a science book and pushed it against the glass of my reef tank... my fish swam away. I then started explaining string theory to my dog, but she laid down, gave a big sigh, and fell asleep. I then went outside to a yellow jacket hive in my backyard and told them that they had no capacity for thought or reason and that their every move was determined by their genetic make-up and pheromones... the little f**kers flew out of the ground and stung me. Maybe I just didn't present it right or maybe human science was totally meaningless to them and maybe our "science" isn't the panacea some claim. It doesn't mean that science isn't useful, fun, or that it shouldn't be taught in schools (schools for humans). However, science is nothing more than one of man's expressions, and I don't believe it deserves any higher prominence than any other discipline (art, music, literature, athletics, etc.).
Science is nothing more than a method to explain the natural world. That’s it and you’re right. Science was created by man. Math was created by man. God was created by man. We made it all up. But we made it all up for a purpose. We don’t need the god part anymore but sciences and maths still do what it they were created for; to explain the natural world in human terms. If the workings of some aspect of the natural world don’t interest you then that’s your prerogative. Maybe there are aspects of the natural world that do interest you; maybe the reason club soda removes a stain. Science just explains it via testable, repeatable methods. Other animals might not care about why things do what they do. It’s not human science or any science. They just don’t care.
Science isn’t an alternate to religion. Science can’t explain the supernatural. Gods and mysticism are supernatural. The problem is all we have is science. We can’t test the supernatural.
 

mikeintoronto

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Maybe.... Maybe not..... The real question is why do you invest time in what you don't believe? It takes alot for me to find enough time to stop and write this. Rather on try to study Darwinism. I learned it in school, put a bunch of things in a bag. Shake Shake Shake out comes a red snapper! Ha ha just kidding 😎
The reason atheists are atheists is because they invest the time. They haven’t taken religious teachings for granted. Rather than follow blindly they want to understand. People born in majority atheist countries like China probably don’t care to know much about religion at all, nor do they even need to.

If some religious people took more time to study history, science, anthropology, “Darwinism”, or whatever else, they might start to question things a bit more.
 

Crashjack

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Science is nothing more than a method to explain the natural world. That’s it and you’re right. Science was created by man. Math was created by man. God was created by man. We made it all up. But we made it all up for a purpose. We don’t need the god part anymore but sciences and maths still do what it they were created for; to explain the natural world in human terms. If the workings of some aspect of the natural world don’t interest you then that’s your prerogative. Maybe there are aspects of the natural world that do interest you; maybe the reason club soda removes a stain. Science just explains it via testable, repeatable methods. Other animals might not care about why things do what they do. It’s not human science or any science. They just don’t care.
Science isn’t an alternate to religion. Science can’t explain the supernatural. Gods and mysticism are supernatural. The problem is all we have is science. We can’t test the supernatural.
I agree other than I don't believe God is made-up. Obviously I can't prove that via science for the reasons you stated, but I know what I've experienced and even proven in a somewhat scientific way that only applies to me and my life, in that the results are repeatable, and no, I'm not talking about making wishes that always come true.
 

Crashjack

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The reason atheists are atheists is because they invest the time. They haven’t taken religious teachings for granted. Rather than follow blindly they want to understand. People born in majority atheist countries like China probably don’t care to know much about religion at all, nor do they even need to.

If some religious people took more time to study history, science, anthropology, “Darwinism”, or whatever else, they might start to question things a bit more.
I totally disagree. I bet I've spent more time pondering the subject than most atheists and also have a masters degree (admittedly not in history, science, or anthropology). You would be hard-pressed to find someone more skeptical about everything than I am. By nature, I am very distrusting to the point where I pretty much assume what people tell me is most likely inaccurate if not just lying. I learned a long time ago that I could read people by ignoring what they say and paying attention only to their actions. Reason being, people can and will tell you anything, but their actions typically remain pretty constant. It is an approach to life I wouldn't wish on anyone, as it is a personality flaw I always have to deal with. For me, pondering the subject has always been about justification as to why I believe what I believe. In other words, I can't just have a belief system, I have to justify to myself why I have that belief system.
 

Corey

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The reason atheists are atheists is because they invest the time. They haven’t taken religious teachings for granted. Rather than follow blindly they want to understand. People born in majority atheist countries like China probably don’t care to know much about religion at all, nor do they even need to.

If some religious people took more time to study history, science, anthropology, “Darwinism”, or whatever else, they might start to question things a bit more.
The reason atheists are atheists is because they invest the time. They haven’t taken religious teachings for granted. Rather than follow blindly they want to understand. People born in majority atheist countries like China probably don’t care to know much about religion at all, nor do they even need to.

If some religious people took more time to study history, science, anthropology, “Darwinism”, or whatever else, they might start to question things a bit more.
Hey Mike! Boy that couldn't have been much fun studying man made religiosity. Have you ever just cut man out and talked to the source of existence? I've found even some of the most prestige scholars of Christianity, were adulterers, etc. Simply because of trying to figure it out. When all He wants is a relationship, not a degree in the Bible.
Places like China force a belief, and the ones trying to follow Jesus are beaten or killed.
But once you find the source (Jesus)! No need to search no more! I look at my fish tank and say what a beautiful creation God has made! I'm sorry you can't say that
 

Paul B

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The Bible was in fact written by man. However, most if not all of the New Testament was written within a few decades of Christ's ascension. "Mark" places himself at the crucifixion and is also mentioned in books that he didn't write.
This, as a Christian I knew. So I researched this topic as I am a sort of a religious history buff, (but not very good) :rolleyes:
We do have some cuneiform tablets from many years before Christ but we have nothing from Christs time about Christ. Only Old Testament writings.

Many years later we have some copies, of copies of things that were translated into Greek that were supposed to be the word of Christ and I assume most of it is. But we have that faith thing again and in any court that would be considered circumstantial evidence.

This stuff was hand copied and translated by scribes for decades and what we read today may or may not be accurate. But it depends on who we want to believe. This article kind of sums it up, but it also makes it more confusing:

 

35ppt

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Maybe.... Maybe not..... The real question is why do you invest time in what you don't believe? It takes alot for me to find enough time to stop and write this. Rather on try to study Darwinism. I learned it in school, put a bunch of things in a bag. Shake Shake Shake out comes a red snapper! Ha ha just kidding 😎
You can discount my experience if you like but in my experience most atheists that I have met are extremely knowledgeable about religion. It's that study of religion that turns people away from it. If you just blindly accept the religion your parents indoctrinate you into you don't need to do any research, you just have blind faith.

I invest time into things that interest me. Why should I have to believe in something to spend time learning about it? I don't believe in Greek mythology but I enjoyed learning about it. I don't believe in Wookies or Jedi Knights but I liked to watch the Star Wars movies. I don't think I'm a female English archaeologist who ventures into ancient tombs and ruins but I liked to play the Tomb Raider games. I find the idea of religion very interesting because it has such a grasp on the world. The stories so nonsensical, the hypocrisy so blatant, yet most people still believe. And believe fervently, even in this time when people have advanced our understanding of the world and how it works so greatly.
 

Corey

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You can discount my experience if you like but in my experience most atheists that I have met are extremely knowledgeable about religion. It's that study of religion that turns people away from it. If you just blindly accept the religion your parents indoctrinate you into you don't need to do any research, you just have blind faith.

I invest time into things that interest me. Why should I have to believe in something to spend time learning about it? I don't believe in Greek mythology but I enjoyed learning about it. I don't believe in Wookies or Jedi Knights but I liked to watch the Star Wars movies. I don't think I'm a female English archaeologist who ventures into ancient tombs and ruins but I liked to play the Tomb Raider games. I find the idea of religion very interesting because it has such a grasp on the world. The stories so nonsensical, the hypocrisy so blatant, yet most people still believe. And believe fervently, even in this time when people have advanced our understanding of the world and how it works so greatly.
I don't depreciate your belief. It's your belief. I said my peace on page 1 and got off. But you and Mike wants to discredit my belief. What I can't defend it?

Hey if that stuff interests you good for you! But depending on man to tell you if there is a God or not? I was saying cut out man , but it's your interest!

My parents were not religious when I was young. I found Jesus when I was 26 years old. Not a denomination or a belief system. But Him! My faith is built on my knowledge of Him. It ain't blind, but undeniably real!
 

35ppt

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I don't depreciate your belief. It's your belief. I said my peace on page 1 and got off. But you and Mike wants to discredit my belief. What I can't defend it?
I didn't say you "depreciate my belief". I said "You can discount my experience if you like" because I had said that in my experience, most atheists I have met know quite a bit about religion and you responded with "maybe, maybe not". Well, that has been my experience and you seemed to not believe that that was my experience.

I think you're taking this much too personally. We are just voicing our thoughts and discussing it. You questioned why I would spend time researching religion if I don't believe, I was just giving you my answer. I didn't mean to make you feel like I don't want you to defend your point of view, that couldn't be farther from the truth. I would expect you to, that discussion is what this thread is all about. Well, we've strayed from the straight question of "how do you know god exists" but I don't mind taking conversations wherever they want to go.

Hey if that stuff interests you good for you! But depending on man to tell you if there is a God or not? I was saying cut out man , but it's your interest!
I would argue that I don't depend on any man to tell me if there is a god. I depend on my own logic. I consider the facts, listen to arguments and make up my own mind about what I think.

My parents were not religious when I was young. I found Jesus when I was 26 years old. Not a denomination or a belief system. My faith is built on my knowledge of Him. It ain't blind, but undeniably real!
I was not speaking of you specifically but speaking in general when I mentioned indoctrination and just giving an observation I have made. When people are not aware of the horrible things that their holy books advocate for it's easier to justify their belief. I'm not saying that's the case with you, just reiterating that's what I have observed.
 

Corey

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I didn't say you "depreciate my belief". I said "You can discount my experience if you like" because I had said that in my experience, most atheists I have met know quite a bit about religion and you responded with "maybe, maybe not". Well, that has been my experience and you seemed to not believe that that was my experience.

I think you're taking this much too personally. We are just voicing our thoughts and discussing it. You questioned why I would spend time researching religion if I don't believe, I was just giving you my answer. I didn't mean to make you feel like I don't want you to defend your point of view, that couldn't be farther from the truth. I would expect you to, that discussion is what this thread is all about. Well, we've strayed from the straight question of "how do you know god exists" but I don't mind taking conversations wherever they want to go.


I would argue that I don't depend on any man to tell me if there is a god. I depend on my own logic. I consider the facts, listen to arguments and make up my own mind about what I think.


I was not speaking of you specifically but speaking in general when I mentioned indoctrination and just giving an observation I have made. When people are not aware of the horrible things that their holy books advocate for it's easier to justify their belief. I'm not saying that's the case with you, just reiterating that's what I have observed.
Good points! Maybe , Maybe not was based on I really don't know if atheists do or don't know. For me if I was one , I would avoid it, but just me.

Its nothing personal, just intriguing. If you was searching if God does exist, wouldn't it be better to go straight to the source? That's all I was saying!

What are the horrible things that the Bible ??advocate
 

Corey

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Perhaps it’s just my experience but I know how selfish/mean/evil people can be. My oldest daughter is a scaredy-cat even now at the age of twenty-seven. She doesn’t even go to the grocery store/Walmart alone. She has seen a lot of evil in her short life. Part of this due to the fact that most of my family are/have been on the volunteer fire dept here. You end up seeing/hearing some gruesome/evil stuff. We live in a poor community but it wasn’t always as bad as it is now. I can’t deny the fact that over the years fewer and fewer people are going to church. I also can’t deny the fact that more and more heinous things are happening all around us. I have worked for our local school district for years (another reason my child has seen so much crap) - let’s just say - I will not be surprised when we fall.
You have nailed this one on the head! Less light more darkness. Take God out of schools, governments, or communities. Less light more darkness. Keep shining your light it will dissipate darkness!
 

35ppt

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Good points! Maybe , Maybe not was based on I really don't know if atheists do or don't know. For me if I was one , I would avoid it, but just me.

Its nothing personal, just intriguing. If you was searching if God does exist, wouldn't it be better to go straight to the source? That's all I was saying!

What are the horrible things that the Bible ??advocate
Mainly rape and murder comes to mind:

Kill All Unbelievers
“And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God.” (Deuteronomy 13: 5)

“If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers.” (Deuteronomy 13: 6)

“Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.” (Deuteronomy 13:8-9)

“Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.” (Deuteronomy 13:15)

A Good Slave is a Good Christian
“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.” (Peter 2:18: )

Kill Men, Women, Infants
“Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” (I Samuel 15:2-3)

Rape, Pillage and Kill
“Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.” (Isaiah 13:15-16)

God threatens sexual molestation
"Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts." (Isaiah 3:16–17)

Cannibalistic Threats
There are nine passages in the Old Testament where God makes cannibalistic threats. Here is the worst one:
"And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." (Leviticus 26:27–29)

I could go on..
 

Corey

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Mainly rape and murder comes to mind:

Kill All Unbelievers
“And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God.” (Deuteronomy 13: 5)

“If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers.” (Deuteronomy 13: 6)

“Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.” (Deuteronomy 13:8-9)

“Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.” (Deuteronomy 13:15)

A Good Slave is a Good Christian
“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.” (Peter 2:18: )

Kill Men, Women, Infants
“Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” (I Samuel 15:2-3)

Rape, Pillage and Kill
“Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.” (Isaiah 13:15-16)

God threatens sexual molestation
"Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts." (Isaiah 3:16–17)

Cannibalistic Threats
There are nine passages in the Old Testament where God makes cannibalistic threats. Here is the worst one:
"And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." (Leviticus 26:27–29)

I could go on..
I'm sure you could.

Simply put sin has consequences. Most of these texts are before Christ. The old testament which most of these texts are from. Was for us a realization that man needs a Savior. That obviously every time God turned around Israel was in disobedience and no doubt God's wrath was strong on them for it.
Christ dies on cross bearing our sins, allowing us to be righteous before God. Allowing Israel and everyone else to be freed from the consequences of sin.

Enough for tonight! Have a good night
 

mikeintoronto

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I'm sure you could.

Simply put sin has consequences. Most of these texts are before Christ. The old testament which most of these texts are from. Was for us a realization that man needs a Savior. That obviously every time God turned around Israel was in disobedience and no doubt God's wrath was strong on them for it.
Christ dies on cross bearing our sins, allowing us to be righteous before God. Allowing Israel and everyone else to be freed from the consequences of sin.

Enough for tonight! Have a good night
I’ll end the night with this quote from Matt Dillahunty:
“You could kill me right now and I will be permanently dead, and I would willing do that if it would end world hunger and poverty. That's a sacrifice! Saying I'm gonna let some people beat me and torture me and kill me, and in a day and a half I'm gonna rise up and become what I was before, (...) That's not a sacrifice, that's a bad weekend!”
 
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