Hybrid TTM to treat all parasites!

Humblefish

Dr. Fish
*** The information contained here is only EXPERIMENTAL at the moment. Use at your own risk!!! ***

So, I wanted to start a discussing regarding the use of Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) in conjunction with Tank Transfer Method. For those who may not be familiar with TTM read this: Tank Transfer Method

TTM is an effective (non-chemical) treatment for Marine Ich; however the weakness has always been its inability to eradicate other external parasites/worms such as Velvet, brook, uronema, flukes and turbellarians. What if combining TTM with H2O2 could widen the spectrum of treatment?? :unsure:

In this field trial, a single treatment with 75 mg/L hydrogen peroxide greatly reduced levels of Amyloodinium (velvet) infestation, and a second treatment 6 days later reduced Amyloodinium trophonts to a nondetectable level: The Application of Hydrogen Peroxide as a Treatment for the Ectoparasite Amyloodinium ocellatum (Brown 1931) on the Pacific Threadfin Polydactylus sexfilis

IME; any chemical (e.g. formalin, acriflavine) capable of removing Velvet trophonts right on a fish is also capable of killing "surface" parasites & worms such as brook, uronema, flukes and turbellarians (Black Ich). So I am theorizing that a "Hybrid TTM" using H2O2 could eliminate most external parasites/worms by following this protocol:

Day 1 – Fish is placed in initial QT. 30 minutes before transfer (Day 4), turn off all pumps/water movement and dose 150 ppm H2O2 as outlined here: Hydrogen Peroxide

Day 4 – Roughly 72 hours later transfer the fish to new tank. The time of day you do the transfer is unimportant, but never exceed 72 hours from the last transfer. The temperature and SG of the new tank should match the old one perfectly, so you can just catch & release (no acclimation). Transfer as little water as possible with the fish.

Day 7 – Repeat. 30 minutes before transfer (Day 10), turn off all pumps/water movement and dose 150 ppm H2O2 as outlined here: Hydrogen Peroxide

Day 10 – Repeat.

Day 13Repeat and done (fish should now be parasite & worm free!!!)

^^
Please note that H2O2 is only dosed twice, 6 days apart and for a maximum of 30 minutes. This is to ensure all velvet trophonts have been eliminated and also lines up for worms that need to be treated a second time due to hatchlings. Everything else about doing TTM stays exactly the same!

Will this work?? I honestly don't know. The science behind it is sound and everything lines up, but it needs to be thoroughly tested before going mainstream. Since starting my business, I'm finding myself with less & less time to experiment so I'm hoping some of you will pick up my slack. ;)

Why TTM is still needed with H2O2: IMO; it is unlikely that H2O2 can penetrate through a fish's epithelium (outer skin layer) to reach Ich trophonts. Eliminating "surface" parasites & worms is a more realistic expectation. So, TTM is still needed to prophylactically address the possibility of Ich!

Other thoughts/concerns:
  1. Avoid using H2O2 on fish with an open wound or obvious infection. Although H2O2 is an antiseptic, it has been found to slow the healing process and possibly worsen scarring by killing the healthy cells surrounding a cut.
  2. It is only reasonable to assume that H2O2 treats parasites/worms on the outside of a fish. Internal parasites & worms will need to be treated separately: Internal Issues
  3. Post treatment, it is always wise to observe the fish in a non-medicated observation tank. This applies whether you are utilizing Traditional TTM or Hybrid TTM, to ensure treatment was successful. Using black mollies in this observation tank can help ensure no diseases are still present: Black Molly Quarantine
 
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Humblefish

Dr. Fish
^^ Just wanted to point out that there's no reason why 45 mins in formalin couldn't be used in lieu of H2O2: Formalin (use the bath treatment dosage)

45 minutes in formalin has the same killing effect on surface parasites/worms, and you can continue to run filtration/pumps with it in the water. However, it must be proper formalin (37% formaldehyde) for consistency. The main drawback to using formalin is it is a known carcinogen.

Everything stays the same as above, just do a 45 min formalin bath instead of a 30 min H2O2 bath prior to transferring. (I know many hobbyists already doing this with success.)

Further reading on using formalin to control fish parasites: http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Use-of-Formalin-to-Control-Fish-Parasites.pdf
 

BluewaterLa

LARC Boil Master
small holes or wounds form the parasites are likely nor worse or better off with the addition of peroxide.
One thing for sure is like corals that tolerate this as a dip due to the slime coat they produce ( NOT SPS ) Fish have slime coats as well.
I would think and can see peroxide possibly having produced more irritation temporarily on larger cuts or infectious areas on the fish.

Interestingly my tangs either from feeding, chasing here and there to rarely having a scuffle with one another have had cuts on their bodies at time of me dosing my tank with no apparent irritation or scarring, although this dosing regiment is much lower in scale compared to a bath of 75-150 ppm.

Definitely agree caution should be taken for sure and it would be nice when we start getting more information compiled on this topic.
 

ascheff

New member
This sounds promising. I've always liked H2O2 for various things, from fighting cyanobacteria in my reef tank, to algae in my freshwater planted tank. This was however at much lower concentrations, 0.03ml per liter in my reef and 0.3ml in the planted tank.

I'm an even bigger fan of TTM, doing daily transfers which I combine with various medications, but always adjusting to improve. Currently I combine with alternating dosing of prazipro and metronidazole + methylene blue, as well as feeding metronidazole + neomycin + focus daily 30 mins before the transfer.

Would H2O2 react negatively to any of these? Considering that everything dosed would have been in the water about 24 hours, while everything fed would be shortly before the H2O2 and transfer.

Are there any fish you have come across that is sensitive to H2O2? CP to me is a great medication, but due to my love for wrasses, I am wary of it, so would definitely like to give the H2O2 a go.
 

Humblefish

Dr. Fish
Would H2O2 react negatively to any of these? Considering that everything dosed would have been in the water about 24 hours, while everything fed would be shortly before the H2O2 and transfer.
Honestly, there's no way of knowing at this early stage. I've only used H2O2 as a 30 min bath treatment with no other meds present in the water.

Are there any fish you have come across that is sensitive to H2O2? CP to me is a great medication, but due to my love for wrasses, I am wary of it, so would definitely like to give the H2O2 a go.
None (so far) at the 75 ppm and 150 ppm bath concentrations I've been experimenting with.
 

ascheff

New member
Honestly, there's no way of knowing at this early stage. I've only used H2O2 as a 30 min bath treatment with no other meds present in the water.



None (so far) at the 75 ppm and 150 ppm bath concentrations I've been experimenting with.
I see http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication3.html#hydrogen_peroxide says under contraindication not to mix with any other medication, so I will steer clear of doing that.

Since you recommend just two treatments, I should be able to easily work in two days where nothing else is dosed.
 

ascheff

New member
I currently have two fishes going through TTM, due to complete in two days. A Magma Fairy Wrasse and little 1" Randall's Assessor.

Since I'm probably not going to get many new fishes soon, I decided to go ahead and try this, in place of the second round Prazipro treatment that was due today. I won't be reporting on the efficacy of this treatment, since my TTM method is slightly different and they have already been treated with various other medications which will scew the results. Both are visually healthy, so it is also purely prophylactic.

I want to report on my experience with the treatment though, even if just to add two species to the list.

I fed them 15 minutes before I added the H2O2 at 75ppm / 0.15ml per liter of 50%. They showed no distress or otherwise strange behavior at any point after I added the H2O2. In fact, they kept on eating too. After 30 mins I did the transfer and I kept watching their behavior for another 30 mins, and it appears that they are even more active and alert than usual. I will report back if anything changes.

From a safety point of view, I can give it a thumbs up, and I will certainly work this treatment into my QT protocol in future.
 

Antics

A Memory of Light
Performed first H202 bath today inbetween first and second transfer. 30 minutes for the Powder Blue didn't faze him at all. Tang is displaying no signs of ich, velvet, or any other disease. I can say that he showed no signs of stress or discomfort while in the bath. I used water directly from the TTM container and dosed it at the measurements and methods outlined by @Humblefish above.

I'll keep updating as I continue.
 
So just so I'm clear, the H2O2 takes care of flukes on the fish, while any potential flukes/eggs remaining in the water/tank are killed when the tank is sterilized?
I'll add this to my to do list of experimentation to help the cause :)
 

Humblefish

Dr. Fish
So just so I'm clear, the H2O2 takes care of flukes on the fish, while any potential flukes/eggs remaining in the water/tank are killed when the tank is sterilized?
I'll add this to my to do list of experimentation to help the cause :)
One 30 min, 75ppm H2O2 bath should take care of flukes. However, you still need to apply a second treatment 6 days later to eliminate any hatchlings from the eggs (same as using prazi).

** And please remember all of this is just theoretical at the moment. **
 
What about starting the whole situation with a H2O2 bath on Day 1? That way the velvet trophont (and other external parasite) burden, if present, could be lessened from the start.
 

Humblefish

Dr. Fish
What about starting the whole situation with a H2O2 bath on Day 1? That way the velvet trophont (and other external parasite) burden, if present, could be lessened from the start.
That's a good idea. But I would followup with a second H2O2 bath 6 days later, and then transfer the fish into a clean/sterile QT to prevent reinfection.

H2O2 has the potential to be a real game changer when it comes to fish diseases but it needs a lot more study/experimentation.
 
That's a good idea. But I would followup with a second H2O2 bath 6 days later, and then transfer the fish into a clean/sterile QT to prevent reinfection.

H2O2 has the potential to be a real game changer when it comes to fish diseases but it needs a lot more study/experimentation.
Yes, absolutely.
 

Humblefish

Dr. Fish
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