Hybrid TTM to treat all parasites!

sakura

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Day 13Repeat and done (fish should now be parasite & worm free!!!)
Hi @Humblefish !
We started 10 Days ago with your Hybrid TTM Idea: The fishes are doing great.
On Friday we would be on Day 13, but we are not quite sure where we introduce the fishes on that point. Do we have to put them in a new quarantine? Or can they be on that point introduced to the Observation Tank?

Thank you for your help.. and of course also for all your great work! :)
 

Humblefish

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kput

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Question about tank size / ammonia build up / Prime.

I've got two separate TTM's going right now.

Tank 1. 5.5 gallon. 2 Firefish, 1 Royal Gramma. Within 24 hours, before feeding, ammonia readings of .5ppm. Dosed prime every 24 hours until the first transfer. Does the ammonia typically build up so quickly from waste?
And does dosing Prime every day truly keep them from harm from the ammonia? I could go with a 10g for more water volume. But I prefer the 5 for space / less salt.

Tank 2. 10g. Blue eyed tang, hawkfish, 2 PJ Cardinals, lemon Chromis.
I expect to see ammonia within 24 hours, so will dose Prime same as the other tank. Have considered buying two 20's for extra space, but the fish all seem fine with the room they have currently. Even if I go with a 20, I'll likely still see ammonia after a day, and will wind up dosing Prime anyways.

I guess my question is, is dosing Prime preventing harm to the fish?
Second question, if I combine all the fish into one 20, will I still run into the same issues with ammonia? I'll use 5g more water per transfer, with a 20 vs 10 and 5.
 

Humblefish

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Question about tank size / ammonia build up / Prime.

I've got two separate TTM's going right now.

Tank 1. 5.5 gallon. 2 Firefish, 1 Royal Gramma. Within 24 hours, before feeding, ammonia readings of .5ppm. Dosed prime every 24 hours until the first transfer. Does the ammonia typically build up so quickly from waste?
And does dosing Prime every day truly keep them from harm from the ammonia? I could go with a 10g for more water volume. But I prefer the 5 for space / less salt.

Tank 2. 10g. Blue eyed tang, hawkfish, 2 PJ Cardinals, lemon Chromis.
I expect to see ammonia within 24 hours, so will dose Prime same as the other tank. Have considered buying two 20's for extra space, but the fish all seem fine with the room they have currently. Even if I go with a 20, I'll likely still see ammonia after a day, and will wind up dosing Prime anyways.

I guess my question is, is dosing Prime preventing harm to the fish?
Second question, if I combine all the fish into one 20, will I still run into the same issues with ammonia? I'll use 5g more water per transfer, with a 20 vs 10 and 5.
Dosing Prime every 24 hours will continuously bind any ammonia. Meaning, there's no chance of a spike. The one danger is the water will eventually turn cloudy if you continue to dose it on a daily basis, and this could reduce oxygen levels in the water.
 

kyley

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I've got two separate TTM's going right now.

Second question, if I combine all the fish into one 20, will I still run into the same issues with ammonia? I'll use 5g more water per transfer, with a 20 vs 10 and 5.
Wow, you're doing about the same as me. A 10g and 5g TTM at the same time, each with 2-3 fish (although you might be overdoing it with five in a single tank IMO). I had some of the same ammonia concerns when I did this. Anyway, I wanted to chime in with an issue that I had that could be what you're experiencing... I tested and was surprised to see a substantial amount of ammonia in my TTM tank. What it took me awhile to figure out (and I was thinking this could be your situation) is that the source RODI water actually had ammonia in it! My city uses chloramines (harder to remove/exhausts filters faster), so the water had ammonia that wasn't all taken out. Anyway, test your RODI water and see if you have ammonia there. Also, even with my clean water, I found a small amount of ammonia after I mixed up my saltwater. My theory is that it was really old, Seachem marine salt (not a good reef salt) that had gotten slightly wet and wasn't entirely safe to use. I'm using good, fresh salt and good RODI filters from now on!

As for your other question, I definitely think the 20 vs 10 and 5 would be better. I also have two 20g long tanks and wish I had done that instead (only issue is I don't have a light hood yet for the 20g). In addition to being more water volume (and less risk of ammonia buildup), that also means more swimming room. That's really cramped space for fish like your tang. Even if you only filled it with 15 gallons of water (thus netting the same amount of water), I think that would be much better. You could even switch them all over during your next transfer. Cheers,
--Kyle
 

kyley

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Hey @Humblefish, I have some questions for you about TTM/Hybrid TTM - and how Ich works in these scenarios:

1. Let's say I've done two transfers with a couple of fish in the TTM tank. And then I add a third fish. Could the two fish be done after the regular 4th transfer - or would I need to restart the transfers from the beginning? Obviously the third fish would need to go through the full 4 transfers.
2. Related to the above - can a fish with Ich infect the other fish going through TTM? My understanding of the life cycle is there's no way that would happen, so there's no risk to other fish. Is that correct?
3. Is the same true with Velvet? Brook?
4. But other things; flukes, bacterial infections, maybe internal worms (?) could be transmitted to other fish?

Thanks,
--Kyle
 

Humblefish

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1. Let's say I've done two transfers with a couple of fish in the TTM tank. And then I add a third fish. Could the two fish be done after the regular 4th transfer - or would I need to restart the transfers from the beginning? Obviously the third fish would need to go through the full 4 transfers.
All fish would restart from the beginning.

2. Related to the above - can a fish with Ich infect the other fish going through TTM? My understanding of the life cycle is there's no way that would happen, so there's no risk to other fish. Is that correct?
If a fish was introduced carrying Ich trophonts and they started dropping off immediately, Ich theronts (free swimmers) could be active in the water within 72 hours. Which lines up perfectly with when TTM is supposed to be done. However, IMO that's cutting it way too close for comfort and allows no leeway just in case a free swimmer were to emerge from a cyst a little early. Murphy's law has bitten me in the ass too many times in my life, so I always play it safe. ;)

3. Is the same true with Velvet? Brook?
No. Velvet free swimmers can emerge from tomonts (cysts) within 48 hours, and brook can only be killed with a chemical (or sometimes 5 min FW dip). Metronidazole, formalin, acriflavine, chloroquine are all proven. H2O2 is still experimental for brook.

4. But other things; flukes, bacterial infections, maybe internal worms (?) could be transmitted to other fish?
Yes, absolutely. Flukes & bacterial diseases can be transmitted via direct contact. Intestinal worms/internal flagellates are transmitted with another fish eats the poop of an infected specimen.
 

kyley

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All fish would restart from the beginning.
That all makes sense and is about what I expected. I thought that as far as Ich (only) goes, the 72 hour transfer would most likely eliminate transmission from one fish to another. But as you noted, no guarantee and would be risky. Thank you,
--Kyle
 

rpetersen

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Greetings @Humblefish . Thanks for all the grind you put in. I'm adding fish to a QT tomorrow. Likely wrasses, possibly a Goby, and/or a 'nicer' tang (whatever looks most healthy at the LFS). Is my synthesis of your work reasonable? I'm ~new in the hobby.

-30-minute dip in 150 ppm H2O2 in a 2-gallon glass container (lots of oxygen beforehand)
- If fish look healthy, dip in temp and pH-controlled RODI for 2-3 mins (too much stress?)
-Transfer to a 10 gallon QT; feed for a few days until eating well. Feed throughout with GC + Focus soaked mysis pellets
-Dose Cupramine (I don't have Copper Power) over 4-5 days until at 2 ppm. Maintain for 3-4 weeks using Salifert testing. I could try to get Copper Safe (I'm in Canada). Worthwhile?
-Large water changes to remove most copper (I don't' have Cuprasorb/can't afford).
-Dose Prazipro twice with a 4-5 day break in between and a 25% water change on the 2nd dose.

Sound reasonable? I'm considering no copper with the wrasses and simply watchful waiting for a month (with a black molly in there). Your thoughts on this? My LFS doses copper but I suspect at sub 2 ppm levels.

Many thanks.
 
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Humblefish

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@rpetersen I would skip the FW dip after the H2O2 bath. Doing both would be redundant.

If using Cupramine, you want to slowly raise the copper level to 0.5 ppm over a period of 4 days. Cupramine is a different form of copper (ionic), and has a much lower therapeutic level than Copper Power/Coppersafe.

I would this treatment calendar to determine when is the best time to add the second dose of Prazipro: http://www.marineparasites.com/paratreatmentcal.html

Black Molly QT is a perfectly acceptable method for quarantining wrasses (or any fish really): https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/black-molly-quarantine.55/
 

rpetersen

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@rpetersen I would skip the FW dip after the H2O2 bath. Doing both would be redundant.

If using Cupramine, you want to slowly raise the copper level to 0.5 ppm over a period of 4 days. Cupramine is a different form of copper (ionic), and has a much lower therapeutic level than Copper Power/Coppersafe.

I would this treatment calendar to determine when is the best time to add the second dose of Prazipro: http://www.marineparasites.com/paratreatmentcal.html

Black Molly QT is a perfectly acceptable method for quarantining wrasses (or any fish really): https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/black-molly-quarantine.55/
Many thanks. A few elaborations if I may:

-Would there be any problem with dosing liquid prazipro first, then Cupramine? This gives me some time to find Copper Power.
-As I'm QT'ing wrasses, would you lean towards API General Cure in the food instead of liquid prazipro in the water column?
-I've always wondered about API powder in the water column. I've read your discussion on this and trying to discern if this is a feasible option (using ethanol to increase solubility etc.)
 

Humblefish

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Would there be any problem with dosing liquid prazipro first, then Cupramine? This gives me some time to find Copper Power.
That's fine; although if you notice symptoms of Ich or velvet I would dose Cupramine (or whatever copper product you have) ASAP.

As I'm QT'ing wrasses, would you lean towards API General Cure in the food instead of liquid prazipro in the water column?
You'll need to do both (if you see white stringy poop.) Prazi in the water column is more effective against external worms than internal ones. Food soaking GC delivers prazi + metro through the GI tract where internal pathogens primarily live.

I've always wondered about API powder in the water column. I've read your discussion on this and trying to discern if this is a feasible option (using ethanol to increase solubility etc.)
It's not a bad idea to add a drop of vodka when mixing GC in a cup before dosing it.
 

rpetersen

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That's fine; although if you notice symptoms of Ich or velvet I would dose Cupramine (or whatever copper product you have) ASAP.



You'll need to do both (if you see white stringy poop.) Prazi in the water column is more effective against external worms than internal ones. Food soaking GC delivers prazi + metro through the GI tract where internal pathogens primarily live.



It's not a bad idea to add a drop of vodka when mixing GC in a cup before dosing it.
Swell, thanks.

What's your take on API general cure in the water column vs. prazipro in the water column? For wrasses, you have indicated that the former may be the safer approach. Sound reasonable?
 

Humblefish

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What's your take on API general cure in the water column vs. prazipro in the water column? For wrasses, you have indicated that the former may be the safer approach. Sound reasonable?
General Cure contains a lower concentration of praziquantel than Prazipro. (2.0 ppm vs. 2.5 ppm)

2.0 is still therapeutic, and should be better tolerated by med sensitive wrasses. The downside is so-called prazi resistant flukes are sometimes able to survive 2.0, whereas Prazipro's higher 2.5 concentration will usually eradicate them.
 

Simonfchr

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How do you ensure the tank and equipment is clean after using vinegar? I put all the equipment into a bucket with 1:4 vinegar to water and then rinsed with water after. I then poured a bit of vinegar into the tank, took some cloth and wiped it around the tank and rinsed then rinsed it with water. I let it dry for a day. Is it safe for my next fish?
Also how do I clean the Seachem ammonia badge? It says that I can’t let it dry out.
 

Humblefish

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How do you ensure the tank and equipment is clean after using vinegar? I put all the equipment into a bucket with 1:4 vinegar to water and then rinsed with water after. I then poured a bit of vinegar into the tank, took some cloth and wiped it around the tank and rinsed then rinsed it with water. I let it dry for a day. Is it safe for my next fish?
Also how do I clean the Seachem ammonia badge? It says that I can’t let it dry out.
Vinegar disinfects, but drying sterilizes. So what I do is air dry for at least 3 days (using a fan to blow over everything) before reusing. This ensures any pathogens that were alive on surfaces are now dead.

You can't really clean the Seachem ammonia badge per se; you can wipe the clear part with a damp paper towel but don't touch the yellow part. I would also store it in RODI (so it doesn't dry out) while cleaning/sterilizing the QT.
 

2000se

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FYI - I posted this at the other reefing community ..wanted to post here as well

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So this is straight TTM with H2O2 baths between transfers basically correct?

Second question, is this a safer alternative as opposed to doing formalin baths between transfers instead?

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As a data point - I just had Ctenochaetus truncates in a H2O2 bath for 30mins at 150ppm (20ml / 1 gal) with no ill effects thus far. After the bath transferred it to a clean tank to begin TTM.
 

Humblefish

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So this is straight TTM with H2O2 baths between transfers basically correct?
Yes; the H2O2 baths are meant to eradicate pathogens (e.g. velvet, brook) that TTM does not address. However, the efficacy of H2O2 (against these pathogens) is still being investigated.

Second question, is this a safer alternative as opposed to doing formalin baths between transfers instead?
Safer: Yes

Just as effective: Remains to be seen
 
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