International Medication Guide

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Humblefish

Humblefish

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Tony Thompson said:
The link NT Labs Koi Care Formaldehyde the concentration by weight is 30% Formaldehyde. This is my preferred product as this also contains the recommended level of methanol 10% - 15% possibly less chance of precipitation to Paraformaldehyde. The lower level of Formaldehyde in my opinion should still be effective as per (Paperna et al. 1981) cited in Noga second edition. The effective dose is quite wide.
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This is the better option, because the formaldehyde to methanol ratio is more balanced.

@Jessican Can you edit the guide to show that the NT Labs product is the preferred choice for using formalin in the UK?
 
Jessican

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Humblefish said:
This is the better option, because the formaldehyde to methanol ratio is more balanced.

@Jessican Can you edit the guide to show that the NT Labs product is the preferred choice for using formalin in the UK?
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Yep will do.
 
Tony Thompson

Tony Thompson

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Hi @Humblefish , I was more interested in your opinion on this matter. I am in the process of discussing the matter with NT labs. I would hold of any recommendation until I have recieved more information from NT labs.

Thanks Tony Thompson
 
Salmo Si

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I've seen failed Brook treatments in the past on UR using NT Labs Formalin. In each case I adjusted the dose I recommended to make up for the lowered concentration in NT labs. I wasn't carrying these out myself though, so have no idea if the people executed the treatment properly.

As I understand it the ethanol is to inhibit the formation of paraformaldehyde during storage. The higher the concentration the longer the shelf life. If you are using the product soon after purchase then I assume it isn't going to be an issue. If you want something to keep in a cupboard just in case, then maybe the APC product isn't ideal. Storage conditions are also important in minimising paraformaldehyde formation. I.e. store at room temperature in the dark.

You should be able to see the precipitate on the bottom of the container or as a clouding of the liquid. If that is present then obviously don't use it.

That said, here is a paper that concludes that small amounts of paraformaldehyde are not dangerous.


What I don't know, and haven't been able to discover, is if formalin with less ethanol is more reactive (and possibly more toxic) than that with a higher concentration.

I've never had cause to use formalin myself so have no direct experience with either product.
 
Humblefish

Humblefish

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Salmo Si said:
As I understand it the ethanol is to inhibit the formation of paraformaldehyde during storage. The higher the concentration the longer the shelf life. If you are using the product soon after purchase then I assume it isn't going to be an issue. If you want something to keep in a cupboard just in case, then maybe the APC product isn't ideal. Storage conditions are also important in minimising paraformaldehyde formation. I.e. store at room temperature in the dark.
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^^ This is the issue. Even when 14-15% Methanol is mixed with 37% Formaldehyde - the resulting “formalin” only lasts about 6 months. A formalin product which only contains 6%-8% Methanol would only be viable for 2-3 months, AND that’s from when it was produced NOT purchased.
 
Salmo Si

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Humblefish said:
^^ This is the issue. Even when 14-15% Methanol is mixed with 37% Formaldehyde - the resulting “formalin” only lasts about 6 months. A formalin product which only contains 6%-8% Methanol would only be viable for 2-3 months, AND that’s from when it was produced NOT purchased.
Click to expand...

Which makes me think about how long fish meds sit on the shelves at an LFS!
 
Tony Thompson

Tony Thompson

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Salmo Si said:
More toxic to the fish, although the paper I linked above suggests that some in the solution is not an issue.
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Hi @Salmo Si , I am doing some research on Formalin myself at the moment as I have not used it previously. I am looking at types of Dip or medium term Bath protocol for some of my customers who are not willing to carry out prolonged quarantine. I offer a method of management through dilution and control. Using UV filtration (calculated specification commercial grade) and targeted nutrition to maintain healthy immune system.

The aims of my research are two fold.

To identify products with active ingredients with a proven efficacy.

To identify products readily available and that meet legal requirements within the UK.

My initial comment was aimed at discussing my preliminary findings with regards the currently listed products on the forum. Therefore would be very grateful for any information people like yourself and Bobby have on the matter.

With regards paraformaldehyde, I was of the understanding that if any is present the solution should not be used. Formalin is Formaldehyde at saturation in liquid form at around 40-50%. If any precipitant forms it is above saturation or precipitated out of solution.

From the University of Florida.

Use of Formalin to Control Fish Parasites1​

Ruth Francis-Floyd and Deborah B. Pouder2

"Solutions of formalin for use on fish contain 10 to 15% methanol, which inhibits formation of paraformaldehyde (discussed below), a highly toxic compound."

"Formalin should be stored in a tightly sealed container in an area where it is protected from sunlight and extremes of heat and cold. Never use formalin when storage temperatures fall below 40°F (5°C) or when a white precipitate (powdery solid) is present in the normally clear liquid. At cold temperatures, formaldehyde is transformed into paraformaldehyde, a highly toxic material which will kill fish on contact. Paraformaldehyde forms as a white precipitate which may collect on the bottom of the container or cause the formalin to appear cloudy.

Also in my understanding 30% Formaldehyde dose not require re calculation for dosage. This understanding is formed by the wide range of effective dosage given in the literature I have so far read.

I own a number of books in my library with regards fish medicine. I am still in the process of following up on citations.

These are the books I own which should enable me to complete my research

Fish Disease_ Diagnosis and Treatment, by Edward J. Noga Second Edition

Fish Diseases by Jorge C. Eiras, Helmut Segner, Thomas Wahli, G.B. Kapoor

Bacterial Fish Pathogens Disease of Farmed and Wild Fish (Springer Praxis Books Environmental Sciences) by B. Austin, D.A. Austin

Diseases in Marine Aquarium Fish by Gerald Bassleer

Marine ornamental species aquaculture by Calado, Ricardo Holt, Joan Oliver, Miquel Planas Olivotto, Ike

Bacterial Fish Pathogens Disease of Farmed and Wild Fish (Springer Praxis Books Environmental Sciences) by B. Austin, D.A. Austin

I still have a lot of reading to do.:)

Best wishes, stay safe.
 
Tony Thompson

Tony Thompson

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I must point out, fish are not my real area of interest so any advice would be very helpful. I find fish to be a real pain:cautious:

I much prefer my Anthozoans, I see them as works of art rather than just animals. Here is a photo I took of a small Zoanthid piece I grow out, that's art:love:

Zoa 2.jpg
 
Salmo Si

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That's lovely. More of an acro man myself, but that's beautiful.

I've always avoided formalin as it's such nasty stuff. Also, up until now CP has been easy to aquire and treats Brook. Now you can't get it I've started looking at formalin a bit more. Not that I envisage ever using it myself, but others on UR will find themselves in that position.
 
Tony Thompson

Tony Thompson

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Salmo Si said:
That's lovely. More of an acro man myself, but that's beautiful.

I've always avoided formalin as it's such nasty stuff. Also, up until now CP has been easy to aquire and treats Brook. Now you can't get it I've started looking at formalin a bit more. Not that I envisage ever using it myself, but others on UR will find themselves in that position.
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Yes I agree its something that should be used with extreme caution. However its possible efficacy towards a broad spectrum of common fish diseases, Brook, Monogeneans, Crypto and Amyloodinium would make it a very interesting candidate as an alternative bath - Dip for those who do not normally follow more stringent QT procedures.

I see a lot of interest in Blue Life Safety Stop, but personally besides the Methylene Blue I am very sceptical about the F-M part.
 
Salmo Si

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Tony Thompson said:
Yes I agree its something that should be used with extreme caution. However its possible efficacy towards a broad spectrum of common fish diseases, Brook, Monogeneans, Crypto and Amyloodinium would make it a very interesting candidate as an alternative bath - Dip for those who do not normally follow more stringent QT procedures.

I see a lot of interest in Blue Life Safety Stop, but personally besides the Methylene Blue I am very sceptical about the F-M part.
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I'm not seeing the need to use it prophylactically to be honest.

It's not a good option for Crypto, flukes are easily and safely treated with praziquantel (fenbendazole and hypo are alternatives if you get a prazi resistant strain) and velvet can be treated with H2O2 baths. There's some evidence now that H2O2 also has good efficacy against Brook as well. @Humblefish could comment more on that.

For me I would avoid Formalin and concentrate on H2O2 as an alternative, reserving formalin for emergencies only.
 
Humblefish

Humblefish

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Salmo Si said:
It's not a good option for Crypto, flukes are easily and safely treated with praziquantel (fenbendazole and hypo are alternatives if you get a prazi resistant strain) and velvet can be treated with H2O2 baths. There's some evidence now that H2O2 also has good efficacy against Brook as well. @Humblefish could comment more on that.
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I consider formalin useless against Ich, and obsolete for temporary relief of velvet (there are better alternatives like H2O2.) However, a 150-200 ppm formalin bath is probably still the best one-shot solution for treating Brook and maybe the only possible treatment (other than Chloroquine) for Uronema:

Prophylaxis for chromis (and other Uronema prone fish)

Enough is enough! After encountering recent failures to eradicate uronema via metronidazole, acriflavine and FW dips; I highly recommend using formalin to pretreat any chromis and other Uronema prone fish. Anthias are also very susceptible, but I sometimes see Uronema on damsels, clownfish...
humble.fish humble.fish

@Tony Thompson This is the only formalin product I’ve been using for the past few years and it has served me well: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CY56QBQ/?tag=humblefish-20

However, this is what most public aquariums I consult with insist upon using: https://syndel.com/product/parasite-s-formalin/

MSDS here: https://smhttp-ssl-29106.nexcesscdn.net/media/docs/PRS1-MSDS-Sheet.pdf

And just to add to the discussion: http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Use-of-Formalin-to-Control-Fish-Parasites.pdf
 
Tony Thompson

Tony Thompson

Well-known member
Humblefish said:
I consider formalin useless against Ich, and obsolete for temporary relief of velvet (there are better alternatives like H2O2.) However, a 150-200 ppm formalin bath is probably still the best one-shot solution for treating Brook and maybe the only possible treatment (other than Chloroquine) for Uronema:

Prophylaxis for chromis (and other Uronema prone fish)

Enough is enough! After encountering recent failures to eradicate uronema via metronidazole, acriflavine and FW dips; I highly recommend using formalin to pretreat any chromis and other Uronema prone fish. Anthias are also very susceptible, but I sometimes see Uronema on damsels, clownfish...
humble.fish humble.fish

@Tony Thompson This is the only formalin product I’ve been using for the past few years and it has served me well: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CY56QBQ/?tag=humblefish-20

However, this is what most public aquariums I consult with insist upon using: https://syndel.com/product/parasite-s-formalin/

MSDS here: https://smhttp-ssl-29106.nexcesscdn.net/media/docs/PRS1-MSDS-Sheet.pdf

And just to add to the discussion: http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Use-of-Formalin-to-Control-Fish-Parasites.pdf
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Hi @Humblefish and @Salmo Si , thanks for the input very much appreciated.

Just to reiterate my reasoning for investigating Formalin (Formaldehyde)

I am looking for dip - short bath protocol for those of my customers who are reluctant to carry out other QT measures.

I am aware of the limitations of Formalin as with all medicines and protocols. The reason I am interested in this particular chemical is as a broad spectrum precaution.

I am still researching a number of important factors.

Availability and regulation. (UK)

Shelf life and stability of solution.

Range of dosage between effective and toxic

Effects on both infestation and condition of the animals gills. (very important to me personally through past experiences)

Long term effects

Obviously targeting with specific chemicals with a proven efficacy to particular disease or parasite, or using a broad spectrum of different treatment prophylactically are much more desired.

However if you talk to my customers you will find a strong reluctance to QT their own fish. They are very eager for me to QT them for them but don't quite understand the logistics involved.

An ounce of prevention as we say.

Sorry I cant go into much more detail, I have to go and open my shop.

Still every day I open my door with in trepidation. I immediately check every animal in my store to make sure they are all still alive and well. If one is hiding I panic. Fish are to much stress for me. I take it far to personally. I even talk to them to say keep on in there buddy, ha , ha. :)

@Humblefish With regards the private message I sent you to delete certain of my posts, I will speak to you soon, to clarify.

Best wishes, and wish me luck, I am sure the animals are all fine as usual and ready to greet me for their first meal.:)
 
Humblefish

Humblefish

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Wandering Nomad
Tony Thompson said:
I am looking for dip - short bath protocol for those of my customers who are reluctant to carry out other QT measures.
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I think duplicating Safety Stop’s bath regimen would be a good option for these customers, except use your own ingredients to ensure efficacy...

Part A: https://humble.fish/formalin/

Part B: https://humble.fish/methylene-blue/

Or just have them do what @Jessican does before introducing new fish: https://humble.fish/hydrogen-peroxide/

Both options should knock off the worst nasties, but obviously wouldn’t eliminate Ich and other deeply embedded pathogens.
 
A

Autonomy

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Jessican said:
***If you have any additional tips or know of sites to order from in various countries, PLEASE reply to this thread so that I can add the information to the OP!***

Unfortunately, the medications that we tend to recommend here are difficult (or impossible) to come by outside of the US. It can be costly or even illegal to attempt to import these medications, so below is a compilation of medication information for various international regions. In many areas, non-medicated treatment options maybe be the best course of action:
In areas where meds are difficult to come by and may need to be imported, it would be wise to procure them before they are needed in an emergency situation. Refer to this thread for a list of medications to keep on hand.

Canada

UK

Guidelines and detailed dosage information can be found in @Salmo Si's threads Emergency Disease Fighting 101 and Internal Parasites and nphsmith's thread My Prophylactic Quarantine Regime at Ultimate Reef. The brief info below was pulled from these two threads and is used with permission.

Note: Some of this information may apply to Europe in general, but it is mostly applicable specifically to the UK.
  • Avloclor (chloroquine phosphate) can be obtained via prescription, and treats ich, velvet, brooklynella, and uronema. Dosage is 10mg per 1L of saltwater.
  • Seachem Cupramine (ionic copper) treats ich and velvet. Therapeutic dosage is 0.5ppm, but this must be reached slowly and should be checked frequently.
  • Copper Power (chelated copper) treats ich and velvet. Therapeutic dosage is 2.0-2.5ppm, more info available here
  • Waterlife Myxazin (acriflavine, malachite green and formaldehyde) is used to fight bacterial infections. Often used to increase the effectiveness of a freshwater dip; dosage is 0.5mL per 3L of dip water.
  • NT Labs Acriflavin (acriflavine) is used as a 90min bath treatment for brooklynella (similar to Ruby Reef Rally). Dosage is 7.5mL per 1L of saltwater.
  • Sera Tremazol (praziquantel) treats flukes and worms. Used as a 6 hour bath treatment at a dosage of 1mL per 11L of saltwater.
  • An alternative to Tramazol is Fluke Solve(praziquantel), which is dosed directly into a reef or QT vs. being used as a bath treatment. Dosage is 1g per 250L (55g) of saltwater. Treatment chart provided by @Wyster:
  • Another alternative to praziquantel is Panacur (fenbendazole). Note: NOT reef safe, even when bound to food. Use only in a QT setting.
    • For internal parasites, dosage is 2mg/litre once a week for 3 weeks.
    • For flukes, it is used as a 12 hour bath treatment at a dosage of 25mg per 1L of saltwater, and the fish would need to go into a clean tank after to prevent reinfection.
  • @Wyster's local source for Methylene Blue (treats ammonia burn, cuts, cyanide poisoning, more info here)
  • Vitamin options: Waterlife Vitazin (contains vitamins A, B1, B2, B6, B12, C, nicotinic acid, D3, E, K, & panthotenic acid) and Selcon (contains highly unsaturated OMEGA 3 fatty acids, Marine Lipids, Stabilized Vitamin C, and Vitamin B12 Cyanocobalamin). Both are good as food additives, along with powdered spirulina. Vitazin can also be dosed directly in the water.
  • Formalin: Formaldehyde 37% ACS (preferred because concentration is known) or NT Labs Koi Care Formaldehyde
Australia
Thanks to @doc for providing additional information on the medication available in Australia: "I wanted to add the following for Australia currently available without prescription locally and without needing to look outside of solutions directly intended for aquarium use." And thanks to @Autonomy for providing additional sources for some of these meds.
Also from @doc: "As for importing medicines you do need to be careful as some ingredients are allowed to come in and some aren't. For people in Aus dealing with a more serious issue or are happy to pay for diagnostic services and prescription medication Welcome To The Fish Vet is an option. Just be aware you need an in home consult prior to any medications being provided. Probably only something for a small niche of people but worth a mention."

As noted previously, if attempting to import medications, plan ahead as noted in the introduction as they may get delayed by customs.

If Cupramine becomes unavailable as mentioned above, the following DIY copper medication will be your best bet:
  • DIY copper medication (copper sulfate) treats ich and velvet. This has a low, tight therapeutic range of ~0.15 - 0.25mg/L and is best used alongside the Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702) to ensure accuracy, but the ingredients to make it can be easily sourced from Amazon.

Asia

Thanks to @Sealala for helping to provide this information. Many medications are difficult to get in Asia, but Seachem and API products seem to be readily available, along with a few others:
  • Seachem Cupramine (ionic copper) treats ich and velvet. Therapeutic dosage is 0.5ppm, but this must be reached slowly and should be checked frequently.
  • Seachem Metroplex/Kanaplex/Sulfaplex/Neoplex, API Erythromycin/Furan-2 (antibiotics), used for treating bacterial infections. Dosages and treatment guidelines vary and can be found in the Antibiotics thread.
  • Seachem Focus (for binding medications to food)
  • API General Cure (metronidazole and praziquantel), dosed directly into QT water for treating flukes and external worms, and food-soaked for treating Internal Parasites
  • Ruby Reef Rally (acriflavine and formalin) is used as a 90min bath treatment for brooklynella and temporary relief of velvet. Dosage is 1 teaspoon per 1g of saltwater.
  • Waterlife Myxazin (acriflavine, malachite green and formaldehyde) is used to fight bacterial infections. Often used to increase the effectiveness of a freshwater dip; dosage is 0.5mL per 3L of dip water.
Sites to purchase from:
Click to expand...

For Australians:-
Ruby Reef Rally Pro is available:-

Ruby Reef Rally Pro (16 oz) : Amazon.com.au: Pet Supplies

Ruby Reef Rally Pro (16 oz) : Amazon.com.au: Pet Supplies
www.amazon.com.au

Imported from USA, but free delivery to Australia when sited on 8th May 22. Free delivery to Australia may change in time:-
 
A

Autonomy

Member
Country flag
Jessican said:
***If you have any additional tips or know of sites to order from in various countries, PLEASE reply to this thread so that I can add the information to the OP!***

Unfortunately, the medications that we tend to recommend here are difficult (or impossible) to come by outside of the US. It can be costly or even illegal to attempt to import these medications, so below is a compilation of medication information for various international regions. In many areas, non-medicated treatment options maybe be the best course of action:
In areas where meds are difficult to come by and may need to be imported, it would be wise to procure them before they are needed in an emergency situation. Refer to this thread for a list of medications to keep on hand.

Canada

UK

Guidelines and detailed dosage information can be found in @Salmo Si's threads Emergency Disease Fighting 101 and Internal Parasites and nphsmith's thread My Prophylactic Quarantine Regime at Ultimate Reef. The brief info below was pulled from these two threads and is used with permission.

Note: Some of this information may apply to Europe in general, but it is mostly applicable specifically to the UK.
  • Avloclor (chloroquine phosphate) can be obtained via prescription, and treats ich, velvet, brooklynella, and uronema. Dosage is 10mg per 1L of saltwater.
  • Seachem Cupramine (ionic copper) treats ich and velvet. Therapeutic dosage is 0.5ppm, but this must be reached slowly and should be checked frequently.
  • Copper Power (chelated copper) treats ich and velvet. Therapeutic dosage is 2.0-2.5ppm, more info available here
  • Waterlife Myxazin (acriflavine, malachite green and formaldehyde) is used to fight bacterial infections. Often used to increase the effectiveness of a freshwater dip; dosage is 0.5mL per 3L of dip water.
  • NT Labs Acriflavin (acriflavine) is used as a 90min bath treatment for brooklynella (similar to Ruby Reef Rally). Dosage is 7.5mL per 1L of saltwater.
  • Sera Tremazol (praziquantel) treats flukes and worms. Used as a 6 hour bath treatment at a dosage of 1mL per 11L of saltwater.
  • An alternative to Tramazol is Fluke Solve(praziquantel), which is dosed directly into a reef or QT vs. being used as a bath treatment. Dosage is 1g per 250L (55g) of saltwater. Treatment chart provided by @Wyster:
  • Another alternative to praziquantel is Panacur (fenbendazole). Note: NOT reef safe, even when bound to food. Use only in a QT setting.
    • For internal parasites, dosage is 2mg/litre once a week for 3 weeks.
    • For flukes, it is used as a 12 hour bath treatment at a dosage of 25mg per 1L of saltwater, and the fish would need to go into a clean tank after to prevent reinfection.
  • @Wyster's local source for Methylene Blue (treats ammonia burn, cuts, cyanide poisoning, more info here)
  • Vitamin options: Waterlife Vitazin (contains vitamins A, B1, B2, B6, B12, C, nicotinic acid, D3, E, K, & panthotenic acid) and Selcon (contains highly unsaturated OMEGA 3 fatty acids, Marine Lipids, Stabilized Vitamin C, and Vitamin B12 Cyanocobalamin). Both are good as food additives, along with powdered spirulina. Vitazin can also be dosed directly in the water.
  • Formalin: Formaldehyde 37% ACS (preferred because concentration is known) or NT Labs Koi Care Formaldehyde
Australia
Thanks to @doc for providing additional information on the medication available in Australia: "I wanted to add the following for Australia currently available without prescription locally and without needing to look outside of solutions directly intended for aquarium use." And thanks to @Autonomy for providing additional sources for some of these meds.
Also from @doc: "As for importing medicines you do need to be careful as some ingredients are allowed to come in and some aren't. For people in Aus dealing with a more serious issue or are happy to pay for diagnostic services and prescription medication Welcome To The Fish Vet is an option. Just be aware you need an in home consult prior to any medications being provided. Probably only something for a small niche of people but worth a mention."

As noted previously, if attempting to import medications, plan ahead as noted in the introduction as they may get delayed by customs.

If Cupramine becomes unavailable as mentioned above, the following DIY copper medication will be your best bet:
  • DIY copper medication (copper sulfate) treats ich and velvet. This has a low, tight therapeutic range of ~0.15 - 0.25mg/L and is best used alongside the Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702) to ensure accuracy, but the ingredients to make it can be easily sourced from Amazon.

Asia

Thanks to @Sealala for helping to provide this information. Many medications are difficult to get in Asia, but Seachem and API products seem to be readily available, along with a few others:
  • Seachem Cupramine (ionic copper) treats ich and velvet. Therapeutic dosage is 0.5ppm, but this must be reached slowly and should be checked frequently.
  • Seachem Metroplex/Kanaplex/Sulfaplex/Neoplex, API Erythromycin/Furan-2 (antibiotics), used for treating bacterial infections. Dosages and treatment guidelines vary and can be found in the Antibiotics thread.
  • Seachem Focus (for binding medications to food)
  • API General Cure (metronidazole and praziquantel), dosed directly into QT water for treating flukes and external worms, and food-soaked for treating Internal Parasites
  • Ruby Reef Rally (acriflavine and formalin) is used as a 90min bath treatment for brooklynella and temporary relief of velvet. Dosage is 1 teaspoon per 1g of saltwater.
  • Waterlife Myxazin (acriflavine, malachite green and formaldehyde) is used to fight bacterial infections. Often used to increase the effectiveness of a freshwater dip; dosage is 0.5mL per 3L of dip water.
Sites to purchase from:
Click to expand...

Also, forgot to add in my last reply to you:-

For Australia, Prazipro can be purchased from:-
Amazon.com.au

Hikari Prazipro 16oz : Amazon.com.au: Pet Supplies

Hikari Prazipro 16oz : Amazon.com.au: Pet Supplies
www.amazon.com.au
 
Humblefish

Humblefish

HF
Location
Wandering Nomad
Autonomy said:
For Australians:-
Ruby Reef Rally Pro is available:-

Ruby Reef Rally Pro (16 oz) : Amazon.com.au: Pet Supplies

Ruby Reef Rally Pro (16 oz) : Amazon.com.au: Pet Supplies
www.amazon.com.au

Imported from USA, but free delivery to Australia when sited on 8th May 22. Free delivery to Australia may change in time:-
Click to expand...
Autonomy said:
Also, forgot to add in my last reply to you:-

For Australia, Prazipro can be purchased from:-
Amazon.com.au

Hikari Prazipro 16oz : Amazon.com.au: Pet Supplies

Hikari Prazipro 16oz : Amazon.com.au: Pet Supplies
www.amazon.com.au
Click to expand...
Thank you for sharing this!

@Jessican Can you update whenever you have time?
 
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