Mimic Tang got sick while in copper

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shashintha

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Hi Guys Im going to share what happened to my fish which got very sick, but might turn out to be ok (hoping), hoping to hear your feed back so i can be better at this next time.

Mimic had a bloch just on its body very dark, one eye looked white some time but went away some time during the treatments. This is how it came from the shop (Online order) Air port tranfer (< 12 hrs travel).

The water was smelly i assumed it was ammonia blocker.

Salainity was on 35ppt, i check to confirm and added them to a new tank after tempreture matching (no old water) i was resanably quick on the transfer so not so much ammonia burn. I kept it with the other fish it came with 2 very small 1.5 inch Blue tang and two wrasses and a lipstic tang about 4 inchs. I kept a seachem aminia checker badge in the tank.


PXL_20211112_023029690.jpg

(The blotch is actually on the other side)

About 1 days later following a freshwater dip i moved them to copper 2.5 coppper, Metroplex(every second day) and did not add prazi as i have added prime.

On day 4 i did a full water change and a fresh water dip[ (i actually had a new tank setup with every thing new this is not a ttm but it was easier) - pre medicated water
(dosed with prime cause i used bleach to wash my tank even though it was dried for bit more than 3 days.)

Mimic tang. Started going on its side on day 4 on 2.5 copper (Same symnptoms on lipstick tang and didnt make it)
The juvinile blue tangs and the wrasees were fine (still fine and still in copper + metro every second day, now had a formalin bath + prazi)

I eneded up moving the mimic and lipstick to a blue bath not a dip (humble fish dosage) no other medication. Then noticed somthing similar to "Brook on a Naso Tang" from humbles example after 1 day in blue(
Brooklynella – Marine Fish Diseases and Treatment
) on the lipstick.

I though the fish were too weak for formalin and did a Hydrogen Peroxide (Bath( (humble fish dosage). ) on both (Liptock and Mimic) which was probably a silly move cause it killed the lipstick instantly after comming out (to a non medicated tank), its made one moved very violently acorss the tank and died (May be cause i frequed it out cause i accidently hit the pump on the tank). Made me want to give up the whole fish this all together... It felt like it was angry when i was tought it it was swimming toward my had accidently or was attacking me (i dont know if this is even possible). :(

Good news is that Mimic tang was in its side but survied, from there onwards i been dosing kenaplex and metro, and blue dip (30 mins) every second day (After 1st two daily doses). Bubbles on max. Every time i did the blue looked got weaker for about 12 hours. On second day i noticed a white stingy poop, no sign of Brooklynella. but very week and on its side. (Im in australia im limited to medication)

(can it be be ammonia, bleach, overdose as i had two 1.5 inc (Baby) Blue Tanx (x2) and two wrasses, which were fine and in copper i change water every 3 days. The fish which got sick were lager than 5 cm. The small guys are still continuing copper after 1 formalin bath with no issues and fresh water dips on every 4 days)

I dosed with prazi at this point i know its restric the oxygen but felt like its dying if i didnt.

Next day she was a bit better still on its side but making such an effort to get up but it couldnt. But chase food on its side.

I tried putting a wavepump she was using the current to get upright swim for a bit and fall bit kept up.

Its been about 3 days now look a little better but more on the side than upright. the pump helped


Here is what i did

Hydrogen Peroxide (Probably not the right thing?)
Prazi - Once
I only been giving Kenaplex + Metro (every second day)
Bluebaths (Every second day)
50% water change every second day
Full Water change on every 3 days

Also Started feeding Kenna + Metro + Fenbendazole (not sure if im overdosing)

But they all seem to have had a positive effected except for Hydrogen Peroxide

The dark bloch now turned white. Now i dont know what to do but it look better than before

When i initially wrote this it was yesterday, she is more upright than yesterday and the wound (i think) seem to be heeling

and advice, though on what i could should have done diffrent. ?

Im suspecting a number of issues together internal and brook and may be others (please advice)

With a wound like that probably cannot do a formalin bath ? or should it?

Here is a video and some photos from yesterday (the white bit has gone more transparent and skin color) will post one on the progress



PXL_20211121_033108230.jpg
 

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Dierks

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Honestly whne you are dealing with fish in this rough of shape its hard. It does seem that you were very aggressive fighting disease and its one of those things were sometimes its great to medicate and other times its just to much. Only thing I will recommend id to drop fish in2.0 Copper Power and the next day bring it up to 2.5.
 

Dierks

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When i initially wrote this it was yesterday, she is more upright than yesterday and the wound (i think) seem to be heeling
This is great news!

I only been giving Kenaplex + Metro (every second day)
Bluebaths (Every second day)
50% water change every second day
Full Water change on every 3 days
This is what I would continue to do.

Fenbendazole (not sure if im overdosing)
Lets hold off on this

Im suspecting a number of issues together internal and brook and may be others (please advice)
This white spot looks like its a bacterial issue more than Brooks. Brooks looks like the skin is pealing off, this looks more like the scales are gone. Also why the medications you are using are making it better as those are antibiotics.

With a wound like that probably cannot do a formalin bath ? or should it?
I would suggest NOT doing this. This fish is very weak and simply needs time to heal. If somehow it can eat that would be huge, give him at least a chance.
 

shashintha

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Thanx for the reply

Yea i realized my mistake too late., :( Feel like i cause it to suffer :(

Fenbendazole (not sure if im overdosing) - what about metro and kennaplex with food, her poop is white stringy every second day

This white spot looks like its a bacterial issue - I think you are right, I was suspecting brook as the other fish had it (blue tang and the lipstick) i think hydrogen peroxide may have removed it. Do you thing those brown marks are ammonia burns, i t hough its was just turning brown as it a mimic.

I still have Erothromicyn, Neoplex, Stress Gard?, some left over ammoxilin from a prescriotion should i use /change any medication?

pain killers?

She swim on its side all over the tank and eat every thing i feed her, As im changing water every day i let her eat a fair bit.

She is a little goes pale affter every blue bath is this wired ?



Sash
 

shashintha

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Sorry you think the issue with the lager fish was 2.5 copper on day one?
I just found out they were does in copper at the supplier. Didnt say how much
 

Dierks

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what about metro and kennaplex with food, her poop is white stringy every second day
I would keep doing those as we are battling a bacterial infection here in my opinion.

Fenbendazole (not sure if im overdosing)
Start this medication back up when the fish is upright and feeling better.

I still have Erothromicyn, Neoplex, Stress Gard?, some left over ammoxilin from a prescriotion should i use /change any medication?
I dont think so, I would stick to what is working if you feel the fish is going in the right direction.

She is a little goes pale affter every blue bath is this wired ?
I guess I have never noticed when I do mine, it helps though as they can breath nice and easy and its helping heal that big wound that bacterial infection is living in.

Sorry you think the issue with the lager fish was 2.5 copper on day one?
I dont know, I just know when I do 2.0 then next day 2.5 I have had a lot of success. So just a suggestion more than anything.

I just found out they were does in copper at the supplier. Didnt say how much
Usually they run it pretty low, but enough to keep disease at bay until they leave their facility. My local guy runs his at 40% therapeutic.
 

shashintha

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THe mimic tang is still on its side, got it color back, but eating, im not sure if she is ever going to be up right.

Now i got a another issue, i changed my other fish in qt (two blue tangs and 2 wrasses) yesterday (after 9 pm (potential mistake?)
I follow the my regular protocol

Fresh water dip (followed by a 50/50 salt to fresh water) Then qt

New qt had matching salinity (35)
Tempreture
Copper 2.25 (Should have been 2.5) this was accidental
(I realized this after putting the fish in and added 1ml of copper (30 liter water, i change water full every 3 days, and g ot a copper ammonia check) potential mistake?

I did add 2 mils of prazi pro Mixed it with 1 metro and added it, potential mistake?

As soon as i added the fish fish were a bit lethargic and blue tang went on its side, they sleep at night so i assumed they (were sleeping potential mistake)

With in 2 hours one of the blue tang were dead. Other one was breathing heavy. Wrasses were truning red on its tummy

I didnt have water ready, i had the old at tank (with same meds) which has < 1 ammonia.. as soon as i tranfer the wrasses were acting better and the redness went away.

I have checked for Chlorine (as i suspected bleach not been washed) there were no chlorine


I dont know what happen im thinking either changing at night or the prazi pro got to them?
Im assuming it was not due to disease?


eventually i moned the Blue tang to a cycled tank which was intened as the observation tank. It died this morning but the wrasses are fine.

its been 14 days now!

Would it be ok to move the wrasses to the same observation tank ? (Where the blue tang died?

I feel very discouraged at the moment i have already lost a lipstick tang and the mimi tang is on its side.

I haved been very carefull and done every possible check

I know i added them to 2.5 copper 14 days ago so this should not be the reason

Fw treseed them out?
 

Dierks

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THe mimic tang is still on its side, got it color back, but eating, im not sure if she is ever going to be up right.
Keep going, she will get better!

Fresh water dip (followed by a 50/50 salt to fresh water) Then qt
Fresh water dips can be extremely stressful. How many do you normally give? Also what is the 50/50 thing you speak of? Never heard of this...

Copper 2.25 (Should have been 2.5) this was accidental
This is completely fine

I didnt have water ready, i had the old at tank (with same meds) which has < 1 ammonia.. as soon as i tranfer the wrasses were acting better and the redness went away.
So are the fish in here now?

Yes seems these fish are getting hit pretty hard with all sorts of stuff. So I would say we need to get your QT process tuned in a bit. Just like everything in this hobby nothing comes fast, so to start next time maybe starting with one or two things and then onto other medications and treatment. I know you also are trying to quarantine some challenging fish so keep that in mind as well. Keep you mind on just getting these last two fish through quarantine and then we can go over your methods.

I am assuming the fish died from the stress more than anything else. I couldn't follow were the wrasses are so I have no answers there. Not sure what is really happening in your process to help to be honest.
 

shashintha

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Fw bath 3 time in 14 days

I think you are right, i need to care for these 3 fish (two wrasses (healthy i hope) and the mimic

im not sure if it was stress as the wrasses returned to normal quiet quickly one i returned them to the old qt (medicated )

So the two wrasses are in the old qt .1 ammonia (with copper + metro) today is the 14th day

Im just wondering if i can move it to the tank where the blue tang died (No mdication but cycled) as the blue tand didnt die from a deseases. I change the water every 4th day not as a tank transfer just to avoid ammonia


I got some photos of the mimic.
She did get upright on her own while the circulation pump is off 1st time and got her color back,





50/50 thing

'From there, the fish go into an interim bath of 50/50 fresh/saltwater solution. Not many people know this, but saltwater fish can be moved to lower salinity water without acclimation. This is done with minimal to practically zero stress and can actually alleviate some strain on the fish’s body.'

Source: Why Us
 

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shashintha

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I really appriciate your help here

not chalanging about the "im not sure if it was stress as the wrasses returned to normal quiet quickly once i returned them to the old qt (medicated)" - luckly i didnt get to flush it out as it was late

Im thinking did i accidently double dose on the meds (prazi pro or metro) (Not copper, i tested) - could that couse fish to die in 2 hours
 

Dierks

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She is trying... She has rubbed herself raw on that side of her body. Poor girl...

So is she on her side more than she is upright? Also add some PVC in there that she can prop herself up against. Try to start healing that side. You are going to have to deal with bacterial infections for sure on this fish. So keep up with the antibiotics. Not sure what else we can do for her beside keeping her in clean water.

Thank you for sharing that link! That is incredibly interesting!! I will have to look into this more. I do know Freshwater dips are pretty stressful on fish so be careful how often you use that tool. Its a great tool, but it can also really be dangerous if the fish isn't in great shape going into the bath.

Fw bath 3 time in 14 days
This isn't to bonkers, but it is hard on sick fish so maybe it was a bit too much for the BT. But also can help a lot... Just be careful and understand the risks of the shock these fish have to go through.


Im just wondering if i can move it to the tank where the blue tang died (No mdication but cycled) as the blue tand didnt die from a deseases. I change the water every 4th day not as a tank transfer just to avoid ammonia
I would say yes... As long as you are sure the tang didnt die from disease you certainly can transfer them.

I got some photos of the mimic.
She did get upright on her own while the circulation pump is off 1st time and got her color back,

She is getting there!! I truly rooting for this one! I would LOVE to see her get healthy and into your tank!
 

Dierks

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I really appriciate your help here
No problem at all!

not chalanging about the "im not sure if it was stress as the wrasses returned to normal quiet quickly once i returned them to the old qt (medicated)" - luckly i didnt get to flush it out as it was late
No worries at all! I think that its great you have your own opinions and thoughts. That is all I am here for is to bounce ideas off of. I am certainly not correct all the time, I am simply trying my best to help when I can so you ultimately get to choose what happens with the fish and what medications to use. So no worries buddy!!

Im thinking did i accidently double dose on the meds (prazi pro or metro) (Not copper, i tested) - could that couse fish to die in 2 hours
Prazipro could do it but not extremely likely as I have done double dose that long before, longer then that could start doing damage. Metro wouldnt...
 

shashintha

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By the way did you see the wounds on the mimic, A fin is damaged that is why she cannot swim, is there any thing else i can give her to accelarate the healing process
 

shashintha

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Sorry about the rant, I have decided to not bother the fish at nigh checking on the every hour so I’m in the next room stressing



I think the lipstick and the mimic tangs may have been weaken by this I cannot conclude?



However the blue tangs which died yesterday (on the last day of quarantine) and the Canary Top Wrasses tackled the fw dips with minimal stress. I’m going to guess the fact the Canary Top Wrasse are still alive mean the process till last incident was safe?

The fish were ok till transfer. I think the 50/50 was the method which kept the wrasses alive.

I might be wrong, I’m very new to saltwater fish I have bought my 1st display (Fishless cycled) tank and I finally put 3 clowns All well away from the quarantine room. The intention is to quarantine from day one.



PXL_20211120_092509218.jpg




I’m guessing is was human error during maintenance handling rather than the process, ill share my methods see if you can see some where I would have, could or might (in the future) have screwed up. This is my second attempt on this method. 1st time was 6 clown fish 1 fatality during observation. Smallest clown looked weak I’m suspecting she may have gone through the wave pump.



I’m not new to handling fish just not salt water fish so let cross any mistake during catching picking up matching temperatures etc. Im not being cocky I just want you to get a idea of me so you can realistically analyse my actions.



Any thought will be appreciated I’m not doing another qt till January so I have plenty of time learn from my mistakes and plan



Note I’m doing this from memory so i may have confused some days in days in between some actions.



Possibilities are;





High Chance:

1. An unexpected chemical was present in the last qt.





Medium Chance:

10. Did not pre aerate the dips (fw & 50/50 dip long enough)

05.Bleach contamination (From Equipment’s)

04 Did the dip too late (9.30 pm) in the day which cause fish to stress


1. Bleach contamination (From tanks)



Low Chance:

10. Chlorine check strip contaminated the water

5. Waking up sleeping fish caused too much stress.

1.Stray current



What I did:



I followed Humbles medicated method with humbles ttm schedule on every 4th day.

TTM water change schedule was to avoid ammonia.



In between I did a;



1. Day 0 30 fresh water dip

Copper + Metro

2.Formaline dip (30 mins), by this time the blue tang had (Brooklynella - white film like ..)

They handled the Formalin dim much better than the FW dip



3.Fresh water dip

(<25 mins the fish were starting to react)

Copper + Metro + Prazipro



I think had to do a water change in 2 days cause the badge was showing ammonia. I think it was due to Prime (1 x dose) messing the ammonia checks. I found this out after doing a water change.



I think after that I prepared a another tank 2 days before with sechem stability or dr tims one and only. I avoided putting prime unless the ammonia get bad or middle of 3rd day.



One round i did not put prime at all (as i was using prazi pro humble dosage) and had no ammonia spike at all. Other tank was ready by then.



Just to avoid bleach contamination go through 3. The tank been used are at least 3,4 days after drying, and re-wash just before using and sometime if i think it smell like bleach! then dry. During the day it under the sun then at night a $Aud15 (7.50USD) table blowing all night fan all night. (In a separate room to the fish room).



In theory the bleach should evaporate even from by this point or should be neutralized enough. Where we are from in Australia its humidity is quiet low where you can dry your cloths after a morning rain before 6pm in winter (17 Celsius) May be not always but you get the idea.



Lately its been 18 - 22 degrees with similar humidity and not much rain.



The idea of bleach still have me a bit scared and prime is not really helping to read the actual ammonia, I i have bought a chlorine strip and been checking for ammonia as well. It red 0 ammonia (But next time i should take the water our to a cup before checking the water just incase of an unlikely chemical reaction with the water.)





Air stones, tubes, hoses, pvc (Sponges (no bleach) goes in boiling water where the end temperature after 1 hour is 80 degrees Celsius. i used to melt some of the plastic not i learned. I leave them to boil for about 10 mins and let to cool. All i need to achieve is over 40 Celsius for one hour i think so i can get away with not melting stuff :)



What could have gone wrong:



I really cannot explain why but here are my guesses



With the mimic tang sick water changes every day and giving medication, blue bath checking on it. I was using new heaters & pumps every time (i did have about 4 spare, 3 pumps) so i had washed them (with bleach) dried for a day and fan next day.

It is quiet possible there were some bleach from this or some other chemical like fertilizer (mist) while its drying.



During the last QT change i was may have forgot to take the glows off after doing a Hanna copper check. Then may be i used the same gloves to catch fish. I think i did change them. Im careful about this normally. However by this time I’m so exhausted doing a day job, and dealing with water changes and washing almost every day.



**I mixed prazipro ( correct dose + metro in one cup with a little water) may be a bad idea



I only aerated the fw dip for 10 mins (Normally 30 mins like humble says)
 
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Dierks

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Just so I understand...

You did a Freshwater Bath (How long? 3-5 minutes?)
Also what is the Copper and the Metro things you listed? If you are using TTM you wouldn't use any medication outside Prazi to eliminate flukes.

Not sure what the 1. 2. 3. represents but again notice you list prazi, metro and copper. Not sure if this is happening in another tank or were these medications are being dosed?


**I mixed prazipro ( correct dose + metro in one cup with a little water) may be a bad idea
This should be okay

I certainly not trying to question your experiences, and I am happy you made your way over from the Freshwater world! That is where I came from as well... But I am simply trying to understand so I can try and help if I have any tricks up my sleeve! :)

Glad you are still fighting the good fight, and you got some extremely challenging cases on your hands right now. Let me know if there is ANYTHING else I can help with or if you have any questions. If I dont know I will simply tell you that, but for the most part I can get you pointed in the right direction.
 

shashintha

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Just so I understand...

You did a Freshwater Bath (How long? 3-5 minutes?)
Also what is the Copper and the Metro things you listed? If you are using TTM you wouldn't use any medication outside Prazi to eliminate flukes.

Not sure what the 1. 2. 3. represents but again notice you list prazi, metro and copper. Not sure if this is happening in another tank or were these medications are being dosed?



This should be okay

I certainly not trying to question your experiences, and I am happy you made your way over from the Freshwater world! That is where I came from as well... But I am simply trying to understand so I can try and help if I have any tricks up my sleeve! :)

Glad you are still fighting the good fight, and you got some extremely challenging cases on your hands right now. Let me know if there is ANYTHING else I can help with or if you have any questions. If I dont know I will simply tell you that, but for the most part I can get you pointed in the right direction.

I am changing water the the same frequecy as TTM and i have 4 tanks as its easy - this is to only control ammonia, might as well do every 4 days. The primary goal is medicated treatment

So between water(tank) changes i do a fw dip normally, (Only formalin if needed)
FW dip for are 5 mins unless if the fish reacting to this
at point 3 (25 mins was a type (i meant to say < 5 mins)

The number are in between tanks transfers/water changes
 

shashintha

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I am changing water the the same frequecy as TTM and i have 4 tanks as its easy - this is to only control ammonia, might as well do every 4 days. The primary goal is medicated treatment

So between water(tank) changes i do a fw dip normally, (Only formalin if needed)
FW dip for
Just so I understand...

You did a Freshwater Bath (How long? 3-5 minutes?)
Also what is the Copper and the Metro things you listed? If you are using TTM you wouldn't use any medication outside Prazi to eliminate flukes.

Not sure what the 1. 2. 3. represents but again notice you list prazi, metro and copper. Not sure if this is happening in another tank or were these medications are being dosed?



This should be okay

I certainly not trying to question your experiences, and I am happy you made your way over from the Freshwater world! That is where I came from as well... But I am simply trying to understand so I can try and help if I have any tricks up my sleeve! :)

Glad you are still fighting the good fight, and you got some extremely challenging cases on your hands right now. Let me know if there is ANYTHING else I can help with or if you have any questions. If I dont know I will simply tell you that, but for the most part I can get you pointed in the right direction.


You tips have been very useful, the last one was to use pvc. At the heat of all this i fogot to add the pvc to the mimic tang. Thanx for picking that up. She is already using it :)
 

shashintha

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So its been two weeks where the mimic (who is still on its side) Should i stop the metro & kennaplex?
She still has injuries through.

S
 
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