New recommendation for chelated copper

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Humblefish

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WARNING: The below recommendations are only applicable to chelated copper (e.g. Copper Power, Coppersafe). They DO NOT APPLY to Cupramine or any other forms of copper.

Forward: After consulting with a public aquarium and our very own @Dierks, below are new recommendations for using chelated copper (e.g. Copper Power, Coppersafe) in two different scenarios. MANY THANKS to @Dierks for doing extensive experimentation in order to confirm the following:

Scenario 1 - Fish being quarantined in a newly setup QT

In this situation, the quarantine tank should be free of pathogens. So, no leftover Ich or Velvet tomonts to worry about from a previous batch of fish.

Recommendation: Take 48 hours to slowly/gradually raise the copper level to 2.0 ppm. After that:
  • With Coppersafe, maintain 2.0 ppm for 30 days OR 14 days and then transfer to a new/sterile tank for observation.
  • With Copper Power, take a few days to further raise the Cu level to 2.5 ppm. Treat at this concentration for 30 days OR 14 days and then transfer to a new/sterile tank for observation.
Scenario 2 -
  1. Fish being placed in a QT that has been used repeatedly, without being sterilized in-between batches of fish
  2. Fish with Ich or Velvet
  3. Asymptomatic fish coming from a known diseased environment
In this situation, we must assume the QT already contains latent Ich or Velvet tomonts. Or the risk of reinfection is high by not raising the copper level quickly enough.

Recommendation: If applicable, run carbon for 24 hours to remove any residuals from non-copper medications you have previously dosed. Then remove carbon and preset the QT to 2.0 ppm chelated copper. The treatment period (30 or 14 days) is the same as outlined above, including the need to raise Copper Power to 2.5 ppm before the clock begins.

The previous recommendation was to begin treatment at 1.0 ppm. (n) However, starting out at 2.0 ppm has been deemed relatively safe via experimentation with multiple different species of fish. Or let's put it another way... The risk of being infected (or reinfected) with Ich or Velvet outweighs any risk from releasing a fish straight into 2.0 copper. (y)

Note: It is highly recommended to use the Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702) to test your copper level: High Range Copper Colorimeter – Checker® HC HI702

Here is a dosing calculator for Copper Power only: Quarantine Help - The FisHotel
 

drstardust

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Any particular reason for 2.5 with Copper Power and 2.0 with Coppersafe? Since they are both chelated coppers, I thought they were essentially the same strength?
 

Miami Reef

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Any particular reason for 2.5 with Copper Power and 2.0 with Coppersafe? Since they are both chelated coppers, I thought they were essentially the same strength?
This is an excellent question. Especially since copper safe notorious for being inconsistent between itself.
 

Jposch

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Any particular reason for 2.5 with Copper Power and 2.0 with Coppersafe? Since they are both chelated coppers, I thought they were essentially the same strength?
Different chelations.
 

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Humblefish

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Any particular reason for 2.5 with Copper Power and 2.0 with Coppersafe? Since they are both chelated coppers, I thought they were essentially the same strength?
In theory, you should be able to raise both to 2.5.

However, I am sticking with MFG recommendations for their respective copper product out of an abundance of caution.
 

mjreefs

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In theory, you should be able to raise both to 2.5.

However, I am sticking with MFG recommendations for their respective copper product out of an abundance of caution.
Hi @Humblefish

Since you suggested to stick with MFG recommendations for copper power, would you say treating at 2.4-2.5 would be better? Or should we treat at 2.5-2.6? I currently have Copper Power at 2.54 +/- 0.05 ppm (error as stated by Hanna checker). Should I lower this or would this be fine?

Also, in the second scenario, how do you suggest we go about in using other meds like Prazipro? I believe for Metroplex, we can simply follow the usual route - to dose in conjunction with copper. Should we still lower copper for prazi then after treatment and observation , transfer the fish to DT. Then dose 2.0ppm copper? Or do we dose Prazi in conjunction with copper?

Thanks!
 

Miami Reef

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Hi @Humblefish

Since you suggested to stick with MFG recommendations for copper power, would you say treating at 2.4-2.5 would be better? Or should we treat at 2.5-2.6? I currently have Copper Power at 2.54 +/- 0.05 ppm (error as stated by Hanna checker). Should I lower this or would this be fine?

Also, in the second scenario, how do you suggest we go about in using other meds like Prazipro? I believe for Metroplex, we can simply follow the usual route - to dose in conjunction with copper. Should we still lower copper for prazi then after treatment and observation , transfer the fish to DT. Then dose 2.0ppm copper? Or do we dose Prazi in conjunction with copper?

Thanks!
Therapeutic range for copper power is 2.0ppm. 2.5ppm gives us wiggle room for human/testing error. I think a 2.4-2.5 is better because copper is an immunosuppressant. I wouldn’t want to expose my fish to anything more than what is necessary. 2.54ppm is fine.

Never lower your copper therapeutic levels while treating for ich, velvet. If the copper dips below therapeutic during ich/velvet treatment then the clock starts over again. Prazipro is safe to use with copper and metroplex. The only “unsafe” bit is that prazipro may start a bacteria bloom. Simply doing a 25% water change before the 2nd dose and getting good surface agitation will combat this.

Are you treating with copper for 14 or 30 days?
 

mjreefs

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Therapeutic range for copper power is 2.0ppm. 2.5ppm gives us wiggle room for human/testing error. I think a 2.4-2.5 is better because copper is an immunosuppressant. I wouldn’t want to expose my fish to anything more than what is necessary. 2.54ppm is fine.

Never lower your copper therapeutic levels while treating for ich, velvet. If the copper dips below therapeutic during ich/velvet treatment then the clock starts over again. Prazipro is safe to use with copper and metroplex. The only “unsafe” bit is that prazipro may start a bacteria bloom. Simply doing a 25% water change before the 2nd dose and getting good surface agitation will combat this.

Are you treating with copper for 14 or 30 days?

I would be treating for 30 days, I’ve read before that you have to lower copper to 0 after the 30 day treatment before you start treating Prazi.
 

Miami Reef

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You should lower the copper after 30 days. Whether you want to treat with prazi during the copper treatment or after is completely up to you.

The reason why someone would want to treat with prazi in copper is so they can observe the fish in unmedicated. While prazi is very effective, there has been reported cases of resistant flukes that can make it through. Dosing prazi during observation period will suppress behavioral symptoms that would otherwise be caught by you.

A con for dosing during copper is the bacterial bloom.

But to answer your question, copper has no toxic interaction with prazi. @Dierks treats his fish with both medications together.

@Humblefish How can we identify a prazi resistant fluke if we dose prazi in our observation tank?
 

Humblefish

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Since you suggested to stick with MFG recommendations for copper power, would you say treating at 2.4-2.5 would be better? Or should we treat at 2.5-2.6? I currently have Copper Power at 2.54 +/- 0.05 ppm (error as stated by Hanna checker). Should I lower this or would this be fine?
I would stay between 2.4-2.5; I wouldn't go much OVER 2.5

Also, in the second scenario, how do you suggest we go about in using other meds like Prazipro? I believe for Metroplex, we can simply follow the usual route - to dose in conjunction with copper. Should we still lower copper for prazi then after treatment and observation , transfer the fish to DT. Then dose 2.0ppm copper? Or do we dose Prazi in conjunction with copper?
You can safely combine metro with copper, but adding Prazipro to the mix is more dangerous because of the potential for a bacterial bloom (cloudy water).

One workaround is to use API General Cure or Fritz Paracleanse in lieu of Prazipro; both contain metro + prazi in powder form. Which is safer to combine with copper treatment.
 

Humblefish

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What if we maintain the established QT at 2.5 for more than 30 days between batches?
What do you mean exactly? If 2.5 has been maintained for 6 weeks or longer @ 81F, then you could lower the copper back down to zero before adding new fish. Since Ich or Velvet should have completed its lifecycle by then, and the presence of therapeutic copper should've eliminated any potential free swimmers.
 

huntindoc

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Yes, that's what I was trying to ask. I just leave copper at therapeutic level between fish. Since I don't often add fish it's been quite a while longer than 6 weeks.
 

HALLETT92

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How would dose a pufferfish with coppersafe ? He is sharing QT with a firefish, had an out break of ich . They are all that survived.
 
Recommendation: If applicable, run carbon for 24 hours to remove any residuals from non-copper medications you have previously dosed. Then remove carbon and preset the QT to 2.0 ppm chelated copper. The treatment period (30 or 14 days) is the same as outlined above, including the need to raise Copper Power to 2.5 ppm before the clock begins.
Ok, question, does carbon effect CP or not? I've seen on other sites that carbon doesnt effect it but here you are saying remove, reason behind this? Not that I doubt you @Humblefish I'm just want to know the thought process for future applications. Also, how do you remove CP besides water changes? I thought Insaw a copper remover but cant remember, I've read too much in the last 2.5 months and have fish fry for brains right now.
 
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