PSA: PRIME safe to use with COPPER POWER

[Humblefish]

First, a few disclaimers:

1. This only applies to using Seachem Prime with Copper Power.
2. I have not tested any other ammonia reducers with any other forms of copper. Seachem, for example, states right on their website that it is dangerous to mix any ammonia reducer with their Cupramine copper product.
3. The manufacturer of Coppersafe (Fritz) has told me that it is safe to use with ammonia reducers as well, but I have not independently verified this.

This all started when the manufacturer of Coppersafe (Fritz) informed me that their copper product was safe to use with Prime, Amquel, etc. This differs from what Seachem has always stated about Cupramine - that any ammonia reducer will turn it 10x more toxic. However, these are completely different forms of copper. Cupramine is "ionic copper" bound on amine, and an ammonia reducer has the potential to break that bound and reduce the Cupramine from the safe Cu2+ form to a very toxic Cu+ form. Coppersafe (and Copper Power) are both chelated coppers. A chelated copper solution is just a blend of two compounds. One is the copper sulfate granule, and the other is an ingredient that allows the copper granules to break down and stay in a liquid state. The ingredient that makes this happen is called a chelator, or sequestering agent.

After getting the green light/more confidence from a chemist about this, I began experimenting on fish by mixing Prime + Copper Power in a QT. I did this repeatedly on different batches of fish, got the copper level as high as 2.5 ppm, tested daily, dosed Prime daily and all the fish are still fine. Not once did I see a spike in the Cu level after dosing Prime using the Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702).

So, I feel it is safe to use & recommend mixing Prime with Copper Power to control ammonia on an as needed basis.

P.S. Prime can also be used with Chloroquine, General Cure and antibiotics. However, I would avoid dosing Prime in conjunction with liquid Prazipro due to the solubilizing agent it contains.

 

[mggray87]

Very good info. Another game changer for qt

 

[Dr.Reef]

If things are done right, you wouldn't need ammonia reducers with copper.
Beef up the bacterial filter before going for copper.
Copper does not kill bacteria as much most hobbyists think.
In my experience I have seen a slight increase in ammonia after copper was introduced in tanks.
Using Seneye monitor I noticed ammonia levels prior to copper at 0.01 rise to 0.02 and go back down in a day or 2.
If you start with NH3 levels under 0.01 or better ideally at 0.001 then you will never have a problem.

Back to topic, if you use prime with copper dont use test kits to measure ammonia as it will show off the charts. Use seachem alert badge or Seneye monitor.

 

[neil]

This is great i need to give it a try esp when the ammonia is getting a bit high in the QT

 

[Humblefish]

If things are done right, you wouldn't need ammonia reducers with copper.
Beef up the bacterial filter before going for copper.
Copper does not kill bacteria as much most hobbyists think.
In my experience I have seen a slight increase in ammonia after copper was introduced in tanks.
Using Seneye monitor I noticed ammonia levels prior to copper at 0.01 rise to 0.02 and go back down in a day or 2.
If you start with NH3 levels under 0.01 or better ideally at 0.001 then you will never have a problem.

Back to topic, if you use prime with copper dont use test kits to measure ammonia as it will show off the charts. Use seachem alert badge or Seneye monitor.

^^ Agree

An ammonia reducer should never be counted on to replace a QT biofilter. If ammonia gets too high, the water will turn cloudy from continuously dosing Prime. Prime should only be used in an emergency situation to quickly deal with ammonia in QT.

 

[Humblefish]

Added this up top:

P.S. Prime can also be used with General Cure and antibiotics. However, I would avoid dosing Prime in conjunction with liquid Prazipro due to the solubilizing agent it contains.

 

[JoelM]

@Humblefish are you aware of any info/have experience with running UV with chelated copper? I did a quick internet search and came up empty other than everyone saying not to mix UV and copper for the same reasons you do not mix cupramine with ammonia reducers. The UV will break the chemical bond in cupramine. Once I knew it was safe to use ammonia reducers with chelated copper I decided to run UV with chelated copper (Copper Power) in a QT tank because I couldn’t handle the bacterial bloom any longer. I had no issues, fish survived just fine, bacterial bloom cleared up, and copper levels remained constant. This is a sample size of 1 and it came up in a discussion with a customer the other day so I was wondering if you could confirm safety of doing so before I go putting bad info out in the public domain. Thanks!

 

[JoelM]

PS - I know UV can quickly render other meds ineffective so you do have to be somewhat strategic in how and when you dose meds and run the UV.

 

[Humblefish]

@Humblefish are you aware of any info/have experience with running UV with chelated copper? I did a quick internet search and came up empty other than everyone saying not to mix UV and copper for the same reasons you do not mix cupramine with ammonia reducers. The UV will break the chemical bond in cupramine. Once I knew it was safe to use ammonia reducers with chelated copper I decided to run UV with chelated copper (Copper Power) in a QT tank because I couldn’t handle the bacterial bloom any longer. I had no issues, fish survived just fine, bacterial bloom cleared up, and copper levels remained constant. This is a sample size of 1 and it came up in a discussion with a customer the other day so I was wondering if you could confirm safety of doing so before I go putting bad info out in the public domain. Thanks!

Seachem states not to use UV with Cupramine: https://www.seachem.com/support/forums/forum/under-the-sea/296-cupramine-and-uv

However, with chelated copper the answer is a bit more ambiguous. I once read this on Foster & Smith regarding a UV sterilizer that they were selling:

From DR F&S
"Operating Guidelines
While UV sterilizers usually do no harm, do not use one when you first cycle your aquarium, as it may kill beneficial bacteria before they attach to the bio-media or gravel. Also, many medications can be "denatured" by the UV light, so the sterilizer should be turned off when using medications, especially chelated copper treatments. The UV light will "break" the bond of the chelating agent, and the aquarium will have a sudden, lethal concentration of ionic copper."

On the other hand, this (somewhat dubious) source claims this:

Coppersafe is safe to use with UV sterilizers, protein skimmers, wet/dry and diatomaceous earth filters. After treatment, Coppersafe can be removed from the aquarium by water changes, fresh activated carbon, or other chemical filtration resins/pads.

I think the only way to know for sure is to do our own testing.

 

[Humblefish]

@JoelM I asked Randy, and here is his reply:

The organic compound chelating the copper might break apart. How fast that happens and whether it is an issue may vary depending on the exact product used.

Sounds like it's going to be a test & see sorta thing.

In the meanwhile, a safer option for clearing bacterial blooms w/copper in the water would probably be running a DE filter: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01C8PH0OI/?tag=humblefish-20

 

[drstardust]

@JoelM I asked Randy, and here is his reply:


Sounds like it's going to be a test & see sorta thing.

In the meanwhile, a safer option for clearing bacterial blooms w/copper in the water would probably be running a DE filter: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01C8PH0OI/?tag=humblefish-20

If I understand correctly, DE cannot be used in a "regular" media reactors like the ones sold by BRS, correct?

 

[Humblefish]

If I understand correctly, DE cannot be used in a "regular" media reactors like the ones sold by BRS, correct?

Correct. It has to be used in a canister filter (or similar) which utilizes a "pool filter cartridge":

The diatomaceous earth (available at any pool supply place) coats the cartridge, and traps particulates, algae spores, parasite free swimmers, bacterium, etc. as they attempt to pass through it.

Ed Wiser over on R2R put together this video showing step-by-step how to use the Magnum filter + DE:

 

[JoelM]

@JoelM I asked Randy, and here is his reply:


Sounds like it's going to be a test & see sorta thing.

In the meanwhile, a safer option for clearing bacterial blooms w/copper in the water would probably be running a DE filter: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01C8PH0OI/?tag=humblefish-20

That’s interesting. I may continue to use it as needed and will report back any ill effects. I’m really getting tired of these bacterial blooms and I’ve had limited success with a DE filter. I’m wondering if the food grade DE I am using is not working correctly. The water in my 5 gallon bucket stays cloudy no matter how long I run the filter when “charging” it. The DE is obviously not getting filtered out. I was trying to avoid buying a huge bag that I will never possibly use.

 

[Humblefish]

That’s interesting. I may continue to use it as needed and will report back any ill effects. I’m really getting tired of these bacterial blooms and I’ve had limited success with a DE filter. I’m wondering if the food grade DE I am using is not working correctly. The water in my 5 gallon bucket stays cloudy no matter how long I run the filter when “charging” it. The DE is obviously not getting filtered out. I was trying to avoid buying a huge bag that I will never possibly use.

Food grade DE is too fine if it's just passing through the cartridge; try pool grade. (It's only like $20 for a big bag; I store it in an empty salt bucket.) I use 6 tablespoons in a bucket with the Marineland filter and it clears in just a few minutes.

 

[RowdyReefing]

Hi All,

I have been blowing up HumbleFish facebook messenger, so I figured I would ask here. I am currently using copper power and dosed prime to keep my ammonia at bay.

Will it be safe to add Fritz Turbo start after a water change? Please note I have copper and fish in QT, only on Day 3.

Thanks in Advance!

 

[Humblefish]

Will it be safe to add Fritz Turbo start after a water change? Please note I have copper and fish in QT, only on Day 3.

Safe = yes
Effective = no

Most of the nitrifying bacteria will just get zapped (by the copper) before it ever reaches the intended target (your filter's bio-media). I suggest seeding the bio media itself in a bucket without copper, and then transferring it to QT after about a week.

 

[Dr.Reef]

in my experience copper only kills 25% of the established bacteria. I am not sure about the bacteria in a bottle poured directly into the water column. I think humblefish is correct, it will probably die due to copper before it hits its target.

 

[steveb]

Has anyone tested API AnmoLock with CopperSafe?

 

[steveb]

Edit: I meant copper power

 

[Jessican]

According to this thread, API said it was safe:

Ammo-lock safe to use with Copper Power?

Anyone used APIs Ammo-Lock for ammonia detox while treating Copper Power? I’ve heard Prime is fine. Just wondering if Ammo-lock which I happen to have on hand is just as safe. Thanks. John

humble.fish

I don’t know if @Humblefish has test it himself, though.