*Salvage protocol for treating very sick fish*

[Humblefish]

How often would Ruby Reef Rally baths need to be administered during the 30 day Copper treatment?

Daily, so long as the redness remains.

And does this also mean if I'm using Kanaplex/Furan-2, it would need to be for the full 30 days as well?

If Kanaplex/Furan-2 wasn't making much headway against the infection, I would continue to do daily Rally baths as well.

Just FYI; Rally isn't the only bath option for treating bacterial infections. Ciprofloxacin can be used in a 1-2 hour bath treatment. Dosage is high: 250mg per gal. Repeat every 24 hours for 7 days. Methylene Blue can be added to increase efficacy. There is also NFG which can be used at double dosage for 30 minutes: https://store.nationalfishpharm.com/items/view/605/nitrofuracin-green

 

[blackstallion]

Daily, so long as the redness remains.



If Kanaplex/Furan-2 wasn't making much headway against the infection, I would continue to do daily Rally baths as well.

Just FYI; Rally isn't the only bath option for treating bacterial infections. Ciprofloxacin can be used in a 1-2 hour bath treatment. Dosage is high: 250mg per gal. Repeat every 24 hours for 7 days. Methylene Blue can be added to increase efficacy. There is also NFG which can be used at double dosage for 30 minutes: https://store.nationalfishpharm.com/items/view/605/nitrofuracin-green

I dosed Kanaplex/Furan-2/Metro last night and they're extremely lethargic now, they are not interested in eating at all, whereas they were pigs just a couple days ago. I'm hopeful this behavior does not last to long...

 

[blackstallion]

Another relevant post from @alprazo:

First it is important to decrease metabolic demand and this can be done by:

- Decreasing the temperature - I shoot for 70 or lower over several hours.
- Decreasing the Specific Gravity to 1.015 (can be done immediately)

Should the QT temperature and SG stay at the above levels for the duration of the 30 day treatment? Duration of the QT stay (up to 6-8wks?) When would you start ramping up to acclimate to DT?

 

[Humblefish]

I dosed Kanaplex/Furan-2/Metro last night and they're extremely lethargic now, they are not interested in eating at all, whereas they were pigs just a couple days ago. I'm hopeful this behavior does not last to long...

It could also be the copper. What is the current Cu level?

Should the QT temperature and SG stay at the above levels for the duration of the 30 day treatment? Duration of the QT stay (up to 6-8wks?) When would you start ramping up to acclimate to DT?

QT temp and SG should remain lowered until the fish are no longer showing symptoms of velvet + the infection, have resumed eating, etc. Basically, you are trying to mitigate the damage being caused by the fishes' own immune systems.

 

[blackstallion]

It could also be the copper. What is the current Cu level?



QT temp and SG should remain lowered until the fish are no longer showing symptoms of velvet + the infection, have resumed eating, etc. Basically, you are trying to mitigate the damage being caused by the fishes' own immune systems.

For Cu levels, below were my results for the API Cu test I performed Monday (left Column was control with the top left vial sitting on the chart and the bottom left 1/2" above; likewise for the right column although now with tank water); I estimated around 2.1ppm because my mathematical dosing approach should have yielded 2.08ppm. I will be receiving my Hanna checker today so will verify.

Both Tangs were still somewhat interested in food prior to dosing the Kanaplex/Furan-2/Metro yesterday, so unless the affect of the Cu is gradual, I would have to assume the ABX are what suppressed their appetite.

Speaking of dosage for the ABX, I followed the recommended amounts on the instructions for each, will this lead to an overdose since I'm dosing multiple meds at once?

 

[Humblefish]

@blackstallion API test kits are notoriously inaccurate. I highly recommend this Hanna checker for testing the copper in your QT: https://www.hannainst.com/hi702-copper-hr.html

Order an extra pack of reagents because the colorimeter itself only comes with 6.

Because you are dosing different medications, you are not overdosing them by following the recommended amounts on the instructions for each.

 

[blackstallion]

@blackstallion API test kits are notoriously inaccurate. I highly recommend this Hanna checker for testing the copper in your QT: https://www.hannainst.com/hi702-copper-hr.html

Order an extra pack of reagents because the colorimeter itself only comes with 6.

Because you are dosing different medications, you are not overdosing them by following the recommended amounts on the instructions for each.

The Hanna checker is arriving today, so will update once I get some measurements. I did also order additional reagent.

 

[Humblefish]

The Hanna checker is arriving today, so will update once I get some measurements. I did also order additional reagent.

I hope I'm wrong, but you might be shocked at how high the copper level is once you check it with the Hanna meter. I would have some salt water on standby to do a water change and lower the Cu level if needed.

 

[blackstallion]

I hope I'm wrong, but you might be shocked at how high the copper level is once you check it with the Hanna meter. I would have some salt water on standby to do a water change and lower the Cu level if needed.

My QT is currently at 30ppt, but, I'm planning on bringing down to 23ppt (1.017) as suggested in this thread. So I'm currently preparing 4.5g of 4ppt water to do a 25% WC as instructed by API for Furan-2 tomorrow evening after the second does of Furan-2 tonight. I can adjust the Cu as needed with that WC, or if the Cu level is way to high, I'll do an emergency WC today to adjust the Cu level accordingly and bring down my SG.

Is 2.0ppm Cu appropriate for 30 day's? Should I be targeting 1.75 or 2.25 instead?

 

[Humblefish]

Is 2.0ppm Cu appropriate for 30 day's? Should I be targeting 1.75 or 2.25 instead?

2.0 ppm is fine for a 30 day QT. I just prefer ~ 2.5 ppm when only treating for 14 days and then making a transfer.

 

[blackstallion]

2.0 ppm is fine for a 30 day QT. I just prefer ~ 2.5 ppm when only treating for 14 days and then making a transfer.

Sorry for all the questions, but I have a question regarding the 30 day mark. Once 30days at therapeutic level is completed, is the correct protocol to remove the Cu ie. WC, polyfilter and there is no need to sterilize the QT at this point because theoretically the parasites should not have been able to survive 30 day's at those level's?

 

[Humblefish]

Sorry for all the questions, but I have a question regarding the 30 day mark. Once 30days at therapeutic level is completed, is the correct protocol to remove the Cu ie. WC, polyfilter and there is no need to sterilize the QT at this point because theoretically the parasites should not have been able to survive 30 day's at those level's?

Yes, if treating at therapeutic for a full 30 days that should outlast any tomonts in the QT. However, there is a small chance of encountering a strain of Ich with a lifecycle longer than 30 days. Therefore I recommend using black mollies during the observation period to aid with disease detection:

Black Molly Quarantine

Preface - Freshwater (FW) black mollies have been used for years in saltwater aquariums for algae control. However, this write-up will focus on their potential for identifying marine fish diseases present in a display tank (DT) and also quarantine tank (QT). The most important detail is to...

humble.fish

 

[blackstallion]

I hope I'm wrong, but you might be shocked at how high the copper level is once you check it with the Hanna meter. I would have some salt water on standby to do a water change and lower the Cu level if needed.

So I verified with the Hanna checker I just received, first test 1.82ppm, second 1.80ppm. Looks like either my calculations were low to begin with OR I'm dealing with some absorption (although I do not have any rock or sand in the tank). Or can the presence of the antibiotic making the water yellowish skew the results?

This goes back to my question of WHAT is considered therapeutic levels? Do I need to bump this up to 2.0ppm and then restart my 30 day window?

Seeing as these fish are already stressed and not eating, do I risk bumping it up to 2.0ppm like I originally was shooting for?

Guidance as to where to go from here would be appreciated!

 

[Humblefish]

@blackstallion You will eventually need to bump it up to 2.0, but ~ 1.8 is technically therapeutic and I wouldn't raise it any higher until the fish start eating. (Copper can suppress a fish's appetite.) Furan-2 (and the yellow water) shouldn't be interfering with the Hanna checker.

 

[blackstallion]

@Humblefish on a separate but related topic, I also have a Yellow Tang in QT now that came last Friday from an online vendor, although extremely traumatized as when he arrived, the bag was basically out of water and he was just at the bottom of the bag with minimal water. I'm not sure how long he was in that state, but, for 7 days he showed no interest in food whatsoever.

Now, he is FINALLY starting to show some interest in eating frozen mysis and algae. However, he seems to be eating some and then regurgitating either all or most of the food. Is this normal after a fish hasn't eaten for a long time? Maybe their stomach/system can't handle it? Or would internal worms/parasites also cause something like this? He is being treated with Copper now so I haven't treated for any worms/etc. His stomach is indented since he hasn't eaten in a while.

 

[Humblefish]

@blackstallion It sounds like possibly he was exposed to ammonia in the shipping bag water. Once a bag is punctured, carbon dioxide creeps in and any fish waste turns into ammonia. (The fish is protected inside a sealed bag because only non-toxic ammonium builds up.)

Exposure to ammonia can harm the gills and also cause internal organ damage (ammonia in-take through the gills). It may be too little too late at this point, but you could try a 30 minute methylene blue bath to reverse any damage:

Methylene Blue

Methylene Blue (updated 1-31-23) What It Treats: Ammonia burn, abrasions, cuts, open wounds. Mild antiparasitic/antibacterial/antifungal properties. Probably one of the best “first response” treatments for a sick fish. Will possibly detoxify a fish that has been exposed to cyanide poisoning...

humble.fish

 

[blackstallion]

@blackstallion You will eventually need to bump it up to 2.0, but ~ 1.8 is technically therapeutic and I wouldn't raise it any higher until the fish start eating. (Copper can suppress a fish's appetite.) Furan-2 (and the yellow water) shouldn't be interfering with the Hanna checker.

The Sailfin and Purple are not looking good. They're both hanging out on the bottom, the Sailfin especially is not looking good. I imagine they're extremely fatigued. Unfortunately, the Ruby Reef Rally I ordered won't be here until Tuesday. Would a FW dip help any at this point? Would a dip in Ruby Reef Rally even help at this point?

 

[Humblefish]

The Sailfin and Purple are not looking good. They're both hanging out on the bottom, the Sailfin especially is not looking good. I imagine they're extremely fatigued. Unfortunately, the Ruby Reef Rally I ordered won't be here until Tuesday. Would a FW dip help any at this point? Would a dip in Ruby Reef Rally even help at this point?

A Rally bath might still help, but it doesn't sound like they'd survive a FW dip at this point.

How long have they been in copper above 1.5ppm?

 

[blackstallion]

A Rally bath might still help, but it doesn't sound like they'd survive a FW dip at this point.

How long have they been in copper above 1.5ppm?

Since Monday evening, so 5 days.

 

[Humblefish]

Since Monday evening, so 5 days.

This is your only shot (and I'm not saying the odds are in your favor):

1. Setup another QT - all clean water/no meds and don't reuse anything from the QT the fish are currently in. Temp & SG should match the tank they're coming out of.
2. Move the fish. Technically, 5 days in therapeutic copper should be long enough to eliminate Velvet because those trophonts can only remain on a fish for 4 days max. The presence of therapeutic copper for five days should be shielding them from reinfection.
3. Just try to get the fish eating again in the second tank (no meds).

If they survive, these fish will require further treatment down the road. But for right now the main priority is to get them eating again because they won't survive otherwise.